Fuel crisis

[Benchwayze]

I was always taught that what you referred to as jealousy, was in fact envy; you know... The principle (or the emotion) upon which Socialism is founded.

_________________
Regards John.


D'you know John, upon reflection, I'm not sure, could be either! The problem is, it engenders a mental state that is certainly not empathic but is emphatically self-centred!

Sam

What on earth is this incoherent nonsense? :roll:
It's easy enough to find out what socialism is about if you really want to. Lots of alternative definitions to choose from too!
Briefly it is the notion that we ourselves ("society") should take control (if necessary) of the things which matter to us, rather than leaving them to chance (free market etc). It exists because free markets fail to provide all the necessities for civilised life, for a large proportion of the population.
Think of USA healthcare as compared to our own NHS, but there are countless other examples, evident to anybody with half a brain, all around the world.

Jacob,

If you weren't aiming your response at me, then you should have deleted my response from your quote. If you were including me, then I'll just say although I am 73 years old, I am not yet showing any signs of Dementia, or Alzheimer's Disease. (Unless you count bothering to respond to this.)

So, I'm quite capable of making up my own mind about Socialism. Please don't tell me I am talking rubbish. I know what Socialism seeks to achieve, and yes, there are some values that make sense. The problem is, it's the application of Socialism that has gone awry. That my friend, is the reason I don't have any truck with it, nor with the likes of Blair, Brown, Miliband and pretenders like Wedgwood-Benn. (He gave up his title but not his money?) They live in Utopia; or their version of it.

So Jacob, if what we have now, is your idea of Utopia, then I think it's you who should go away and do some reading. Then you might be qualified to tell me what Socialism is and what it's all about.

NMTBS from me.

 

[Steve Jones]

I'm afraid my mower is empty. Looks like the lawns will have to wait :wink:

Dave

Trouble is Dave it's what I do for a living

Steve

 

[Jacob]

.....
So Jacob, if what we have now, is your idea of Utopia,

Certainly isn't. We've got an awful Tory govt for starters!

then I think it's you who should go away and do some reading. Then you might be qualified to tell me what Socialism is and what it's all about.

NMTBS from me.

No need to be huffy! If you support strong opinions about socialists suggesting that their motives are envy or jealousy, then you should expect a vigorous response!
I agree with you about Blair, Brown, Miliband - too depressing to think about. Tony Benn OK though - he says a lot of sensible things. Not sure what he does with his money but he supports higher taxation and redistribution so presumably accepts that this could cost him something.

 

[Digit]

Good on you Jacob, now you can answer the question you dodged once before. Give an example of a 'Socialist' state that worked.
Last time I stated the only case I knew of was the Kibbutzim.

Roy.

 

[Jacob]

Good on you Jacob, now you can answer the question you dodged once before. Give an example of a 'Socialist' state that worked.
Last time I stated the only case I knew of was the Kibbutzim.

Roy.

Most of the democratic "first" world is basically socialist including UK and USA. They are democratic and all have large areas of life under government control or regulation - but the government is elected, so that means us.
Not sure what you have in mind - I guess you mean a state where absolutely everything is under central control. Tends not to work, as we all know, except in emergencies e.g under external threat of war, but at great cost.

 

[Benchwayze]

I wasn't going to say any more Jacob.

However, we don't have a Tory Government. The last time I checked we had a Coalition; led by a Tory Prime Minister, trying to sort out 'another fine Socialist mess'. Of course Cameron wants to stay in power, so he has to pander to the likes of Clegg. Otherwise the Lib-Dems decamp, and we have another election, probably letting in a schoolboy, with a simplified view of the world and classroom levels of debate. I'll give you, that on this recent occasion Cameron didn't give much away to Clegg, but there are deeper issues to look at, other than 'Redistribution of Wealth'.

Neither am I being huffy. I am giving you my opinion. Socialism is heavily based on envy, and the wish to have everyone at one level. If you genuinely believe that redistribution of wealth via taxation means more money in your personal pocket, then you surprise me with your naivety. :|

Next thing you will be saying is everyone has a right to work. 8)

 

[Jacob]

....
Neither am I being huffy. I am giving you my opinion. Socialism is heavily based on envy, and the wish to have everyone at one level.

Nope. Envy has nothing to do with it. Having some level playing fields does though. Education principally. It's simply inefficient and unproductive to have education based on ability to pay. The emerging economies all know this and are taking over the world!

If you genuinely believe that redistribution of wealth via taxation means more money in your personal pocket, then you surprise me with your naivety. ....

Taxation is what drives all modern economies and is basically the price of civilisation itself. It's not about more money in my personal pocket - it's about quality of life. It does benefit businesses though, if money is forced to circulate. It's wasted on the wealthy, they don't need it. What goes around comes around.

 

[RogerS]

John...I can recommend the Foe list facility on the forum. It can save you a whole load of time and effort and getting sucked into the 'same-old-same-old' cant from a certain quarter :wink:

 

[Benchwayze]

](*,)

If you want a level playing field Jacob you have to make one,
Not rely on some Government Department to provide it 'free of charge'.

Now I am going to add some more tax to the fund, and buy some timber.

 

[Benchwayze]

John...I can recommend the Foe list facility on the forum. It can save you a whole load of time and effort and getting sucked into the 'same-old-same-old' cant from a certain quarter :wink:

No Probs Roger. Thanks for the reminder though. I doubt I'd go that far with anyone. :-({|= :wink:

 

[Jacob]

](*,)

If you want a level playing field Jacob you have to make one,

We do. We vote for socialist policies (as far as we can nowadays :roll: )

Not rely on some Government Department to provide it 'free of charge'.

It's not free of charge. We pay for it from taxation. It's like an organised whip round! e.g. we get state education or NHS by acting together, we don't make it up on our own. How would you make a level playing field otherwise?

Now I am going to add some more tax to the fund, and buy some timber.

Good good! Don't begrudge the tax - you'll get it back many times over one way or another, especially if you are ill, but that's not the only way by any means.

PS poor old Roger - he thinks things go away if he closes his eyes! :lol: :lol:

 

[Digit]

he thinks things go away if he closes his eyes!

And you think that if we tax the 'Wealthy' and give it to 'Disadvantaged' they will use it to improve their standard so that the 'Diasadvantaged' would then disappear!
That was the belief at the start of the welfare state, doesn't seem to be working does it?
Mind you of course, I have to confess that I'm not certain as to what the socialist definition of disadvantaged is?
And while you're at it could you show where universal education is 'Free?'
To agree with you on one point though, yes, there are many definitions of 'Socialism' usually tailored to suit those in power, after all, Nazi Germany was 'Socialist!'

Roy.

 

[Jacob]

he thinks things go away if he closes his eyes!

And you think that if we tax the 'Wealthy' and give it to 'Disadvantaged' they will use it to improve their standard so that the 'Diasadvantaged' would then disappear!

Yes in principle. It's not that simple though. If you insist on over simplistic descriptions of how things work you won't understand them, but then you don't want to do you, like Roger peeking out between his fingers. :lol:

That was the belief at the start of the welfare state, doesn't seem to be working does it?

It certainly does work. many of us wouldn't be here, let alone half educated, if it wasn't for the welfare state

Mind you of course, I have to confess that I'm not certain as to what the socialist definition of disadvantaged is?

You tell me, it's your own little straw man.

And while you're at it could you show where universal education is 'Free?'

Most of the civilised world has education free at point of delivery, paid for by taxation

To agree with you on one point though, yes, there are many definitions of 'Socialism' usually tailored to suit those in power, after all, Nazi Germany was 'Socialist!'

Roy.

Take your pick.
If you are confused about the difference between Nazi "National Socialism" and Labour party "Socialism" you aren't going to get far in grown-up conversations!

 

[theartfulbodger]

If Estate agents sell you house at twice the price they get twice as much commission

Never could understand why estate agents fees are based of the house price.

It's a way of "taxing the rich"

Very Robing Hood :?

 

[Digit]

As I have an IQ of more than 150 Jacob I am not seeking ann 'over simplistic' explanation, just a logical one.
Goal posts again J, my comments about the welfare state were in direct reference to the 'Diadavantaged', not in other aspects of the WS, so please try again?
You are the one that keeps on about the 'Disadvantaged' I am simply seeking clarification as to who these are in case I might misunderstand you, so another explanation please? Or is the term as elastic 'Socialism?'
Goal posts again, 'Free at point of delivery' is not 'Free' is it?
And goal posts yet again, I simply observed that you claimed that there were many definitions of 'Socialism', which I ageed was the case, so you twisted what I said to suit yourself. I have little confusion vis-a-vis NAZI Germany etc.
Rather it seems that you 'Socialists' use the term to fit what ever form of government suits, why else are there , as you state, so many different interpretations?

Roy.

 

[Jacob]

....
Goal posts again, 'Free at point of delivery' is not 'Free' is it?......
Roy.

Correct. So what?

 

[Digit]

You implied that third world countries etc had 'Free Education', that's not so is it? As for them taking over I would observe that those who are so doing use capitalist methods. :lol:
Any answers to my questions though?

Roy.

 

[Mike.C]

I think that this topic is exhausted, so lets move along hey.

Cheers

Mike