Front door panels appear crooked

[Jacob]

......I’ve done enough doors in old properties to believe that most were fitted by people who had little if any skill.

Absolute nonsense - I've spent half my life working in old buildings being impressed the degree of skill and intelligence shown everywhere. Pre WW1, after that things go downhill.

It was standard practice to repair doors and frames by splicing in new pieces. Often the bottom of the frame rots out and new pieces about 2’ long are inserted over the years. This had nothing to do with preserving original fittings, but rather down to economics, it was cheaper to do!

Because labour was cheaper. The same job nowadays would be costly and we don't have the skills.

What ever you decide to do, I wouldn’t be too hard on the joiner who installed the door.

Agree

It was mission impossible to achieve perfection.

Not true. Copying the old door is straightforward but requires a bit of skill, appreciation and the kit. It's being done all over the place but you wouldn't necessarily know because you can't tell (if it's done properly) whereas you can tell instantly when something has been replaced with something out of character, as we have here

Equally I wouldn’t get too bleary eyed about the old door. It’s not a complex door, little moulding on it and flat panels would suggest it was ‘budget’ end. The ‘craft’ of how it was probably made and definitely installed is on display, and that which we can see was done with little to no skill!

More nonsense. That's a classic and good quality door of its type and it appears to be in fair condition even after 100 years or more. It would have outlasted the door which has replaced it
PS Victorian 4 panel doors tended to be plainer detailed. The bottom panels are flush, which is better for weathering (more rain hits the bottom and no horizontal ledge or moulding for it to sit on) and because they are thicker - better for traffic - more impact likely at the bottom, boots, hooves etc. Sometimes made the full thickness of the frame . The mouldings are vertical and struck rather than stuck, which also weathers better. A 6 panel door, being fancier, would sometimes have glass in the top 2, bottom 2 panels same as above, 4 top panels with bolection mouldings nailed on - with the nails going into the stiles and rails not into the panel - so it can move free. etc etc they really knew what they were doing!

 

[toolsntat]

All is not obvious in this case due to not being able to see it clearly, apart from the muntin being a bit too narrow.
There is an exceptionally deep rebate on the transome of this frame as a result of fixing another timber underneath it.
There is also something going on on the inside of the transome with another timber being being planted on (and not painted :evil: )
I have theories but not the time to write just now :wink:
Cheers Andy

 

[Turbot]

I take the point about the original door being imperfect to start with, then modified to make it appear ‘square’ and pleasing to the eye.

One of the problems with the new door is that the vertical piece of wood down the middle is narrower than on the original door. As well as making it look flimsy and a bit cheap, it’s impossible to attach the house numbers side by side (something that bothers my mum, whose house this is).

Since the mouldings (if that’s the right word) on the new door aren’t neat right angles, it is presumably impossible to widen the vertical piece of wood. So I wonder how much can really be done to improve this new door, and whether we wouldn’t be better off refurbishing the old door (or starting again).

 

[Jacob]

I take the point about the original door being imperfect to start with, then modified to make it appear ‘square’ and pleasing to the eye.

No it would have been perfect. What you have is a bit of settlement or other movement putting things out of square

One of the problems with the new door is that the vertical piece of wood down the middle is narrower than on the original door. As well as making it look flimsy and a bit cheap, it’s impossible to attach the house numbers side by side (something that bothers my mum, whose house this is).

Since the mouldings (if that’s the right word) on the new door aren’t neat right angles, it is presumably impossible to widen the vertical piece of wood. So I wonder how much can really be done to improve this new door, and whether we wouldn’t be better off refurbishing the old door (or starting again).

I'd refurbish old and have a look at the frame too. It wasn't the door itself the problem it was the settlement or whatever building movement went on.

 

[AJB Temple]

I think you have to assess what you want here. If you wish to avoid further expense then living with the quirkiness of it may be your best option.

I am not sure your friendly carpenter has done you any favours. At the very least he should put the knocker on the right way up.

1 The new door is worse aesthetically than the old door and is out of proportion.
2 Door furniture looks tatty and will be more so when the door is painted properly (which would be better done with the door furniture off).
3 Frame is clearly out of true and replacing or altering the frame will be disruptive, not cheap and probably beyond the skills of your tradesman.
4 The nailed on external draught excluder looks cheap and is indicative of a door that does not fit the frame. I would remove that and see what I am dealing with. Apart from not having 90 degree angles, the frame may well be twisted, which is a likely explanation for fitting the external draught strips.
5 If the original door was too small, then it might be possible to strip it, add an edge strip and re-finish. Some interior pictures would help. It will certainly look much better than what you have now, especially if you clean out the mouldings.
6 I would rub down and re-paint the frame whilst I am at it, and replace the door furniture to smarten everything up and complete the job.

I fear the new door is a lost cause and will never look good. It is possible to make doors out of true to fit a skewed frame, but it is a devil of a job. I did it once to fit a very old oak frame in a Grade 1 listed building I was renovating. The door itself was beyond saving, except for the panels, which I re-used.

 

[Doug71]

All is not obvious in this case due to not being able to see it clearly, apart from the muntin being a bit too narrow.
There is an exceptionally deep rebate on the transome of this frame as a result of fixing another timber underneath it.
There is also something going on on the inside of the transome with another timber being being planted on (and not painted :evil: )
I have theories but not the time to write just now :wink:
Cheers Andy

Hadn't noticed piece stuck under transom, guess it was to cover up the gap that appeared above the door when frame dropped? A photo of the inside would be good to see what is going on/how well the new door fits.

 

[Turbot]

I should have said, the black draft excluder is from the previous door and wasn’t fitted this week by the carpenter. However, he has advised us to fit a wider one...

Here are some photos taken from inside.

 

[deema]

Doors often didn’t have thresholds, the jambs were simply held at the bottom by steel spikes that are imbedded into the jamb and the step. The added threshold is an addition to try and remedy the draft that was always present from this economical design.

Looking at the inside the top left of the new door it appears to sit away from the frame, assuming the door was made flat, which is a reasonable assumption the reason for this will be that the frame wasn’t put on correctly. The jambs, or vertical sections of the frame will not be in the same plane. I.e one of the jambs feet will be further into the house than the other. This is what causes this typical fault found on numerous doors installed by the crafts men of old.

If you happen to have a level, can you check along a mortar line to see if has been suggested the house has settled....or as I suspect it was just poor fitting of the door frame.

Unless the skirting boards have been added since the door frame was installed, the junction of the skirting and the door frame architrave is very poorly done.

If the new door was made to what was asked for, there should be no compliant about it’s manufactured dimensions. It it isn’t, then you have cause for redress. The result of how it looks if it is what was asked is a just matter of personal opinion.

 

[Turbot]

I’m afraid I don’t understand all the technical terms in the comments that have been made. But I can confirm that the house has suffered settlement in the past (sometime before we moved in 20 years ago).

 

[Jacob]

I’m afraid I don’t understand all the technical terms in the comments that have been made. But I can confirm that the house has suffered settlement in the past (sometime before we moved in 20 years ago).

Yep.
If it had been badly installed frame/door then someone would probably have rectified this in the intervening 120 or more years, rather than bodging it badly years down the line.

 

[ColeyS1]

Even if the top wasn't wonky the top and sides of the door are much smaller than before. As you say, the middle section isn't big enough to put the numbers on properly. The old door looks fantastic, sorry to say the new one just looks odd at the moment.
The upside down knocker just adds to the crazyness!

I'll probably get shot for this suggestion but how about cut out the frame bit that's not level and move it up. Stick the bit back on the door to make it parallel again. It'd mean a new piece of glass but you could use the opportunity to have the house number etched on the glass instead, something like this perhaps-

It would look parallel, number would look more pleasing and you would have a new door. Other than cost the other downside is you'd be fiddling with the frame that some would say should have been left alone.


Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

 

[Turbot]

What really puzzles me is that the vertical parts of the door (the left, right and centre strips running top to bottom) look truly vertical, with each of them the same width top to bottom (nothing shaved off). But the horizontal lines of the top and bottom of the panels are at an obvious slant. If the door was properly made, how can this be?

 

[toolsntat]

Hang on a minute, is it me or does the top of the door look parallel ?
Could you measure it to confirm this?
To me it doesn't look as bad as expected.....
If so maybe sorting the frame is best option.
Still leaves the number and width of knocker problem.
Maybe a skinny style of knocker and number on the glass to sort it?
Cheers Andy

 

[Turbot]

Hang on a minute, is it me or does the top of the door look parallel ?
Could you measure it to confirm this?
To me it doesn't look as bad as expected.....

Sorry, I’m not sure where you would like me to measure.

 

[toolsntat]

The upper horizontal rail on the top of the door running left to right is the one you need to measure.
Do you find it visually wrong on the inside as well or is it just the outside?
I think everyone is in agreement that unfortunately the middle upright (muntin) looks too narrow.
Cheers Andy

 

[AndyT]

Nobody else has mentioned it, so I will just add - are you happy with the panels on the new door?
The old door had beaded flush panels on the bottom which would have been about 2/3 of the thickness of the edges. On the new door, it looks like the equivalent panels are thinner - probably about 1/3 - so the door might be colder.

 

[Jacob]

Nobody else has mentioned it, so I will just add - are you happy with the panels on the new door?
The old door had beaded flush panels on the bottom which would have been about 2/3 of the thickness of the edges. On the new door, it looks like the equivalent panels are thinner - probably about 1/3 - so the door might be colder.

I mentioned it! front-door-panels-appear-crooked-t121089-30.html#p1332077

 

[RogerS]

Coming to this late and apologies if it's already been mentioned but...

the photo of the original door in the frame. None of it looks out of kilter. It all looks square.

But if you look at the replacement, the hinge stile is glaring in that it's not straight aka the same width at the top compared to the bottom. It's been badly hung...simples.

I also agree...the original is so much better.

Britannia Square ?

 

[AndyT]

I mentioned it! front-door-panels-appear-crooked-t121089-30.html#p1332077

I'd have seen that if it was in a new post, not a late edit, but I'm glad we agree.

 

[LBCarpentry]

God I love a thread like this. Every site joiners worst nightmare, except it’s not us, it’s someone else! So we all get to say “oooo I wouldn’t have done that, I would have done this”

Two issues here. The first one, which seems more an issue for the forum members than the OP is that the door is not like for like. Forgive me, I don’t want this to sound rude. But there are only two choices when making a door. You either have it like for like which requires no explanation, or you have a different style, which requires drawings and approval from the customer. The fact that the OP doesn’t know what the door is made from, indicates to me that the carpenter has been given free reign to supply a door that will keep costs down, but is vaguely similar. Arguably this has been achieved. But if you specifically asked for like for like, then someone owes you a new door......

The second issue is installation. The frame is impressively out of square, and this has been masked by the tapered additions to the original door. Bummer for the chippy. This would pass without even being queried 9 times out of 10, but once the flag is up, it stays up. Solution - new additional tapered timbers, A tapered plant on for the rebate, similar colour frame and door? Probably a combo of tweeks. Certainly the black excluder isn’t helping.

My theory......

Life’s too short.... :twisted: :twisted: