First saw restoration

[Jacob]

Jacob, I think you & DW are talking at cross-purposes. "Breasting" in US (& most Australian) use refers to putting a curve in the tooth line to compensate for the rotary action of arms flailing back & forth. You seem to be using "breasting" for what is called "jointing" in the US or "topping" in parts of Australia, i.e. running a file over the tops of the teeth to bring them into line.
As Oscar Wilde said, "...two countries divided by a common language..."

For those less familiar with saws, breasting is applied to most large crosscut two-man saws (the few monster rip saws used for pit-sawing that I've seen had a straight, or near-straight, tooth line). From my own years of experience on the end of crosscut saws, breasting certainly helped in keeping a smooth action going.

Conversely, it was rip saws that were breasted with hand saws, or at least they are the only ones I've ever seen so configured. You may argue the merits of breasting on these saws, I've only ever used one briefly & didn't find it any great revelation, but then I never had to rip planks by hand all day every day. Others clearly do/did think it helped because breasted saws were not uncommon back in my dad's day.

Cheers,
Ian

Sorry yes I meant topping. These are all unfamiliar terms for me as I don't do any of them!
I guess that the "breasting" you describe with two man saws may have more to do with the structural physics of a long saw blade than the actual cutting action - a full width parallel sided blade being more cumbersome than one tapered towards each end

 

[D_W]

ok, makes sense. someone who is sharpening their own saws may need to do some jointing when the saw is no longer cutting smoothly and it's determined to be due to high teeth .

I've never jointed or breasted a saw that I've already sharpened. With some care, a file stroke or count of file strokes should remove exactly the same from back of the saw to the front .

Jointing constantly is encouraged by the gurus here in the states who spend their time teaching classes to people re: restoring old saws. I have, of course, jointed to get the first tooth line. After that, crosscut saw filing is rare, and I'm trying to get through resharpening a rip saw in less than 5 minutes if possible as I'll be doing it each time I start a new project of any size. 5 minutes of sharpening will save far more than 5 minutes of sawing.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Breasted handsaws are still available. Thomas Flinn offer their Pax and Roberts and Lee Dorchester ranges with breasting.

Pax Handsaws available as Rip, Panel and Handsaw from Thomas Flinn & Co., Sheffield saw and hand tool manufacturers (flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk)

I have a Roberts and Lee panel saw bought new in the early 1990s which has a breasted toothline, though the amount of breasting isn't much - maybe 1/8" or so. I'm really not at all sure it offers any advantage in dry wood over similar saws with straight toothlines, frankly. I suspect the usefulness increases a bit with tooth size and wetness of wood - as IWW says above, big two-man cross-cuts in wet wood are more likely beneficiaries, though they generally have much more pronounced breasting, judging from the ones I've seen (but not used!).

This is a long way from backsaws, though - sorry, Stan!

 

[IWW]

.... I guess that the "breasting" you describe with two man saws may have more to do with the structural physics of a long saw blade than the actual cutting action - a full width parallel sided blade being more cumbersome than one tapered towards each end....

Jacob, while a "bellied" (another term I've seen used commonly) saw is indeed lighter than a parallel blade of the same length, I can assure you the curve has other benefits! It does make the saw a bit stiffer in the middle, which is useful, but have a look at a video of a couple of sawyers going at a log & you'll see the lifting action as each person pulls the saw back. The the videos I found were competitions (like this - mind the noise from the chainsaw in the background!), and the log was on a stand. As a teenager, I spent many, many hours on one end of a crosscut saw & my old pot on the other end. In the bush you are generally working with the log on the ground or on a small chock so that from about halfway down the cut you are working on your knees & the rolling action becomes even more pronounced. It's hard yakka in any case, but I reckon a saw with a straight tooth line would've made it pure torture!

Ian

 

[Stan]

@ Cheshirechappie

No need to be sorry. This is all good stuff for me.

Thanks all for some interesting learning.

 

[Jacob]

Jacob, while a "bellied" (another term I've seen used commonly) saw is indeed lighter than a parallel blade of the same length, I can assure you the curve has other benefits! It does make the saw a bit stiffer in the middle, which is useful, but have a look at a video of a couple of sawyers going at a log & you'll see the lifting action as each person pulls the saw back. The the videos I found were competitions (like this - mind the noise from the chainsaw in the background!), and the log was on a stand. As a teenager, I spent many, many hours on one end of a crosscut saw & my old pot on the other end. In the bush you are generally working with the log on the ground or on a small chock so that from about halfway down the cut you are working on your knees & the rolling action becomes even more pronounced. It's hard yakka in any case, but I reckon a saw with a straight tooth line would've made it pure torture!

Ian

I see your point. For me the only equivalent usage would be with a floor board saw, which wouldn't work at all if it wasn't curved i.e. so you can saw straight into a surface without having to find a starting point. I did have one once but haven't needed it for a long time!

 

[IWW]

..... For me the only equivalent usage would be with a floor board saw, which wouldn't work at all if it wasn't curved ....

Indeed, a floor saw is an example of extreme "breasting" which, as you say, couldn't do its job otherwise. I borrowed the principle for this saw I made (from a scrap of floor-scraper blade), to cut out the back of the curved slot in replacement handles for old Disston saws 'cept I made it cut on the pull stroke to prevent the blade flexing:
It did the job, but I've since re-made it with a wider blade and a bigger radius curve, which works better.

Then there's the opposite of breasting, as used on pruning saws & the like, whatever that's called...

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Jacob]

Salaman shows bellied saws of every persuasion - bellied one side or the other, or both. What they all have in common is sufficient width to keep them on the line, and being tapered one way or another - as with all hand saws, bellied or not, which don't have stiff backs or frames.

 

[Marc Shaw]

Could be. You see funny looking old saws a lot on Ebay and people think they are special purpose (dovetails etc) but I think they are just worn out.
Dictionary of Woodworking Tools R. A. Salaman
Brilliant book, essential reading. 545 pages of text and illustrations, all hand tools.
Helps not only to identify things but also to point you at tools for particular jobs.
e.g. 80 pages on planes alone, including plane makers' tools
£10 to £30 on Ebay

Sorry for raising an old thread. You know Rafael's daughter is the lovely Jenny Manson? Top Lady

 

[Jacob]

Sorry for raising an old thread. You know Rafael's daughter is the lovely Jenny Manson? Top Lady

No I didn't know that. Pleased to hear it - both highly commendable heroes in their different ways!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenny_Manson