Finding staff

[Phil Pascoe]

Ross, you mention the "5 GCSE's at "C" or above. A (govt. or education) spokesman some while ago said that a C grade at GCSE was no guarantee of literacy or numeracy. "what is 17 + 14" , "how many 50p's are there in £200" and "write 6008 in words" are sample questions that I've seen in maths GCSE papers. A marker writing in The Times a while ago said she gave it up because she was advised that if she had any doubt whatsoever, she was to award a "C" - because otherwise the paper would be sent back for re - marking until someone eventually gave it a "C".
A little off tack, maybe, but relevant to the presumed standards of the young people you are likely to employ.

 

[IHc1vtr+]

I'd like to point out the annual salary is nearly £24000 so quite a bit above your examples, with overtime this can be in excess of £33000.
38hr week. overtime if you want it.
20 days holiday plus bank holidays.
Unpaid leave is usually fine.
I think your post is off the mark

As for just starting a business and taking on comissions, if it's that simple why doesn't everyone do it. Whats the point in anyone working for anyone if it's so easy to make more money on your own>[/quote]



=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

 

[RossJarvis]

. A (govt. or education) spokesman some while ago said that a C grade at GCSE was no guarantee of literacy or numeracy. "what is 17 + 14" , "how many 50p's are there in £200" and "write 6008 in words" are sample questions that I've seen in maths GCSE papers. A marker writing in The Times a while ago said she gave it up because she was advised that if she had any doubt whatsoever, she was to award a "C" - because otherwise the paper would be sent back for re - marking until someone eventually gave it a "C".
A little off tack, maybe, but relevant to the presumed standards of the young people you are likely to employ.

Personally I think there is a massive problem within our education system. When I was teaching engineering (fitting and turning). I gave up being surprised at the number of students who couldn't understand the decimal point and could only count on their fingers. The difference between a C grade at O'Level and GCSE is massive.

If you think about it, with the introduction of the A* grade, the concept of C is now a D anyway. If they introduce A** then C is actually an E!

The main reason I was sacked was going sick due to stress. The organisation didn't understand how stressful it is to teach practical engineering to students who couldn't read, write or count and who had no practical metal working or technical drawing experience at school. (the only options given were pass every student or get sacked anyway). I trained as a "CDT" teacher and that discipline is not really about teaching hand skills, although there are still some people trying to teach these things. It's about creating the designers and thinkers of the future. The British Education system is in the business of making money, it has no real interest in creating trades people. It tends to give out qualifications because it's told it has to, which is a hell of a lot easier than actually creating people who can do things.

Not that I'm bitter :evil: but just don't get me on the subject. I pointed out that my boss was giving qualifications to students who had not completed courses and that he asked me to award him one without doing the work (he later gave it to himself as I refused). For this I was considered a trouble maker. Not every FE college is quite as bad as this, but the current approach to education has made this likely to happen. Modern qualifications are no real indication of any form of ability or achievement. This makes it impossible for any employer to really get an idea of what people are actually capable of.

 

[RobinBHM]

I believe that the current NVQ qualifications for joinery are not of the calibre of city and guilds courses.

Also FE colleges seem to have sold all their cast iron wadkin or equivalent machines in favour of much lighter duty equipment.

 

[Water-Mark]

This might seem way off so forgive me for offering it but have you tried your local probation service?
Cabinet making is often taught in prisons so you may find someone keen to press on in life with the appropriate skills.

I've no first hand experience of this incidentally but I do know a guy who trained as a luthier in an open prison many years ago.
Not sure how much effort he put into that mind as he was an absolute demon on the pool table.

I used to run maintenance gangs for London Underground and the difference between the British and Eastern Europeans was truly shameful.
I'd take the Europeans over the British every day of the week, something I was regularly berated for.

 

[RossJarvis]

I used to run maintenance gangs for London Underground and the difference between the British and Eastern Europeans was truly shameful.
I'd take the Europeans over the British every day of the week, something I was regularly berated for.

When teaching, I found that the "overseas" students, often refugees of some sort, tended to be harder working, more interested in learning and doing work. The "indigenous" students often tended to be the opposite or had greater issues. Few were totally bone idle though, but it was a chore having to encourage people to be "motivated". It was actually pretty hard though, for say, a black African who was an outstanding student to find employment. The problem being that employers may or may not have been "prejudiced" but were never in the position to actually see them working. All they can go on is an interview and looking at various certificates, which often confuse due to the plethora of levels and titles which don't appear to make any sense.

It can be too easy to blame the individuals themselves, I think there are bigger issues at large in our society and the education system is overwhelmed trying to fix them. The reason that 25% of Brits are functionally illiterate is not purely down to the education system not trying. The education system isn't really up to dealing with a large proportion of the population as it's really designed to feed the universities, not make useful people.

When it comes to the trades etc, these are seen as lesser/dirty/unworthy occupations for people. We really need to bring a sense of pride in these roles, but I can't see it happening soon. The government may be trying to push "Modern Apprenticeships" (or what-ever they're called this week), but they don't realise the whole concept and system is fundamentally flawed in too many areas.

 

[Water-Mark]

"not make useful people"
Sad but true.

Kids I've worked with seem to be lacking basic self discipline and in a lot of cases even any sort of self preservation.
The reason you shouldn't be texting whilst working three feet away from running trains or whilst crossing electrified track is completely lost on most of them and on several occasions their parents as well!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

There was a letter in The Times some years ago from a guy who owned a small engineering business bemoaning the fact that 16y.o.'s were coming to him from school and expecting to be fully qualified at 19 y.o. - when they didn't know what a file was, and had never held a hammer. At least in the past they'd have had a few years metalwork and woodwork behind them.
It's an even bigger bummer when they can't read, write and add up.

 

[rafezetter]

I believe that the current NVQ qualifications for joinery are not of the calibre of city and guilds courses.

Also FE colleges seem to have sold all their cast iron wadkin or equivalent machines in favour of much lighter duty equipment.

I had considered re-training to do these types of courses in the hope of maybe landing a job such as DrBob is offering BUT if they are churning out idiots with little to no handskills; I think I might be better off just showing some of my work instead.

I'm no cabinet maker, but I can do all that RobinBHM mentioned and more besides, all self taught but I consider myself mediocre compared to some of the items made I see posted here.

(I wonder if I could just walk in - do a few demonstrations, prove I can already do all that and walk out with the diploma the same day and save myself a year?? :| )

I'm also curious as to the thinking that it has to be a young apprentice. Why exactly? Surely a guy like me; in his 40's who has a much more grounded, thoughtful, approach would be leaps and bounds more preferable than some 18 yr old barely literate teen; who can barely bring themselves to look up from their phones / tablets to cross a road let alone finesse a dovetail.

I recently left my old place and it had two 17/18 yr olds. Nice enough guys to talk to but both had their heads firmly stuck in their ****, no sense of importance, had to be directed on every task, even the one that had been there a year already, at least 1 cigarette an hour, and on the phone constantly. 5pm on the dot: gone, regardless.

Anyway my point is - a young apprentice so you get some years out them... you hope. 5 - 10 years maybe? Some companies might get lucky and land a kid who wants to make it his life's career; but I'm pretty sure from responses I've read in this thread and others that there are far more adults who would do it, be more enthusiastic for it and would be looking for it to be long term for their own security, than any current mass produced idiot school leaver.

To be frank I think the notion of taking on only young people with (from the observations of RobinBHM) a smattering of actually usable skills is self defeating for employers nowadays.

I'm 45 in 3 months, so do I risk a year or two to get these much vaunted bits of paper or am I already too late?

Edit: sorry got a good bit of steam up then, but it just annoys me to see golden opportunities wasted on those too stupid and too juvenile to see and appreciate them, when there are people around practically saying they would gladly do it for basic living money (me included).

 

[Phil Pascoe]

A young girl I knew some years ago was a trainee patissiere, and she went for a job interview in a top notch London hotel. She had the five minute interview and the guy said "the milk, cream, cheese etc. is in the fridge, the herbs, spices and so on are in the cupboards. There are your ingredients, there's the kitchen. Cook us something."There's got to be a lot said for this outlook, although paper qualifications are now everything.
A guy I used to work closely with came to me one day and asked me if I could get him out of a jam. I did, and went back to what I was doing. The chap I was working with at the time asked me if I thought it odd. I said no, and asked if he did. He asked if I had any paper qualifications to do that job, and I asked why. He said he thought it amusing that I had no qualifications but the person who asked my help because he didn't know what he was doing was an NVQ assessor.

 

[SpinDoctor]

Years ago my wife worked for a university were she was responsible for managing over 120 million in grants to a variety of scientists... She was given carte blanche as to how she wanted to develop the job and run it. About 5 years later, when we decided to move to another country, the heads of the department (all phd snobs) put the job out to tender. It was decreed that only someone with a minimum degree qualification should be considered for the job, as no one less would be able to perform up to what she had built... My wife has never had any qualifications other than year 12. In Australia she was regularly head hunted by director generals and regional directors of the state government who would bend the rules to have her on their staff and put her in positions where she would have to build and develop positions from scratch. They all thought she had impressive skills and such, enough so to circumvent policy, but they would never promote her because she lacked a simple piece of paper demonstrating she was able to barf up on command a load rubbish on a test that ultimately meant nothing.

I have two degrees and when people say, you must be so proud... I say, it's nothing to be proud of, it's actually harder to fail university than it is to pass. It just proves I'm a trained monkey that can barf up the right rubbish on command.

 

[mailee]

A good friend of mine owns his own Carpentry business, employs 5 joiners, and has plenty of work in the area. He started out like myself doing wood work as a hobby and went self employed over 30 years ago as a one man band. Before the financial crisis he employed 30 guys and had lots of industrial work as well as private. he has never done a course in woodwork or has any qualifications. Most of his joiners have more pieces of paper than he has but still look to him for advise. He has employed a few youngsters over the years who have got the pieces of paper and also says they can all talk a good job but can't actually do it! :roll:

 

[SpinDoctor]

Interesting and timely article on google news today regarding most employers shunning local young workers in favour of eastern europeans and older workers. Seems they're pretty useless at all but nintendo (TM)

 

[whiskywill]

Ross, you mention the "5 GCSE's at "C" or above. A (govt. or education) spokesman some while ago said that a C grade at GCSE was no guarantee of literacy or numeracy. "what is 17 + 14" , "how many 50p's are there in £200" and "write 6008 in words" are sample questions that I've seen in maths GCSE papers. A marker writing in The Times a while ago said she gave it up because she was advised that if she had any doubt whatsoever, she was to award a "C" - because otherwise the paper would be sent back for re - marking until someone eventually gave it a "C".
A little off tack, maybe, but relevant to the presumed standards of the young people you are likely to employ.

My wife is a part time university lecturer and she has been instructed (verbally) by her superiors not to fail anybody in the first two years of a three year course because the "university is a business" and needs the tuition fees. I often read their exam papers to give myself a good laugh.

 

[Fat ferret]

I'm 23 and run my own joinery business mostly traditional stuff, doors, windows built in stuff and bits of pine furniture. I would bite your hand off if you offered me a job!

I went to tech college for a year but it was hopeless, I did all the course work in the first month and then had to wait for everyone else to catch up. I actually used to bring in wood and make stuff for myself and to sell. I tried to get an apprenticeship but all local joiners took on their sons and wouldn't give me a chance.

Bit annoying when people start on about "the young of today" and how the eastern Europeans work so much harder than us. I planted trees for 5 pence a one all day everyday last winter and kept up with the Latvian workers.

Would be good to be employed doing something I liked but mostly when I've worked for other people I've just been exploited. My last boss actually refused to pay me for three days spraying trees with a knapsack because he wasn't making any money from the contact. I did my job while he sat in the bloody pick up and watched for hours!

Least when your your own boss you get some choice in what you do and how.

 

[JandK]

It is interesting noting the comments on Eastern Europeans. The workforce for the company I work for consist of about 85% Eastern Europeans.
I do not find them dependable at all especially Monday mornings when they need to recover from the Vodka excesses from Sunday, their lack of neatness and precision is appalling. When asked if they can do this or that the usual comment of "no problem" means only that in 7 out of 10 cases you will be spending a lot of time correcting a total shambles.

When they get rapped on the knuckles out come the race card.

I do think that with all nations you will find the rotten apples in similar percentages, but I must agree that most British youths only real experience/ interest is in the latest computer and phone games and of no real use.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

A friend works in food packaging and a few years ago started to employ Portuguese. At first they were great, but after a few months they discovered bad backs and depression and spent more time off than working. Later it was Poles who were great at first, but after a few months discovered... yes, you've guessed it...

 

[doorframe]

As a sub contracting sparx I got totally peed off being regularly laid off in favor of Easterns prepared to work for a pittance. Their standards were appalling and their electrical knowledge extremely limited. As for qualifications, C&G for example, non existent.

But it was cheaper for the firms to employ Easterns to do the donkey work and minimal qualified staff to do the snagging.

During the years I spent on site I watched them take over most of the trades, from ground work through bricking, dry lining, spreading (plastering), chipping, and sparking. They hadn't taken over toshing (painting), plumbing or kitchen fitting but that was 10 yrs ago so they probably have now. Even the final cleaning before hand overs were done by their wives and gf's.

They would turn up to site and pour out of the back of transit vans with no tax discs. They spoke little or no English, and stole anything they could get away with, including my tools.

Decent ones were few and far between.

If I'm ever in a position to take on an employee, it will not be an Eastern.

 

[doctor Bob]

Still looking.
It's not rocket science, I just want someone who can hang a door in a face frame and progress from there.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

Ahh, but if this is what you are referring to under the "careers" section of your web site, you are looking for experienced cabinet makers who can show initative, work to exacting standards and with experience in bespoke kitchens essential. That sounds a bit more than being able to fit a door to me ? And for somewhat less than the national average full time salary (£26,500 in the year April 2012; ONS)

I sometimes wonder if by asking for more experience than you really need you don't put off the genuine people who know they aren't an experinced cabinet maker, and the genuinely experienced who can't/won't work for the salary, and only get left with the bulls****ers applying.


Edited to add: Nice looking kitchens BTW. If the wife sees your site, I'm in trouble.