Doug B
Shy Tot
they’d soon find out if cutting timber with a high moisture contentMy suggestion is fit Sawstop to all table saws, just don't tell anyone.
Ollie
Festool with sawstop.
- Thread starter TRITON
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Inspector
Nyuck, Nyuck, Nyuck!
they’d soon find out if cutting timber with a high moisture content
Since you can test any material to see it it will trip the brake that is the argument of someone that doesn’t read manuals. Before starting the saw touch the blade with the material and look at the display. If it flashes you don’t make the cut, or run the saw in bypass mode, knowing the brake is off.
Pete
WoodMangler
Established Member
I take it you don't wear a seat-belt in your car ?
Cannot see the connection, what I am saying is you cannot protect someone from themselves if they do not have the right attitude, they are essentially an accident waiting to happen. No mater how much you try and make everything safe you have to accept that life is not risk free and it is your responsibility to remain unharmed and not expect someone else to remove the risk for you.
I went to one of the recent roadshows hoping to try out this saw, unfortunately they didn't bring it to my area. But I did chat to the Festool rep about it – he stressed it was "just" a site saw, not intended for cabinetry/furniture making use, and I shouldn't expect much precision from it ("you'll be alright as long as you can accept maybe a millimeter or two out over the length of the cut"... I think I knew what he meant, it's not a Felder cabinet saw, but if he meant literally 1-2mm error, that's a huge amount of error even for a £200 saw, let alone an £1800++ one).
Steve_Scott
Established Member
nonsense… for someone who claims to have worked in a ‘safety is paramount’ industry, you should be aware that the goal is to reduce the likelihood of the hazard, or ideally remove the risk altogether (and thus protect the idiot not paying attention or working foolishly). As someone else has pointed out (apologies for not quoting their username), any employer would be a fool to not use this tech where possible in their operation. It is entirely analogous to the seatbelt and airbags in my car that I have, so far, not had use for.
Sporky McGuffin
Light entertainer
Exactly. The hierarchy is:
Training is down in Administrative Controls; the Sawstop, push sticks, and so on are Engineering Controls and are a better solution than training. Anyone who's worked in a safety oriented job or industry should know this. The HSE's version is here:
https://www.hse.gov.uk/construction/lwit/assets/downloads/hierarchy-risk-controls.pdf
Training is low because we all know that people are easily distracted and forgetful. Training doesn't make it impossible to cut off your hand on a tablesaw, the Sawstop does.
Training is down in Administrative Controls; the Sawstop, push sticks, and so on are Engineering Controls and are a better solution than training. Anyone who's worked in a safety oriented job or industry should know this. The HSE's version is here:
https://www.hse.gov.uk/construction/lwit/assets/downloads/hierarchy-risk-controls.pdf
Training is low because we all know that people are easily distracted and forgetful. Training doesn't make it impossible to cut off your hand on a tablesaw, the Sawstop does.
You are completely missing the point, infact you are demonstrating why safety starts with the worker because you think there are procedures in place that makes things safe for you, a machine may pose a hazzard in operation but it is you who is in control of the risk.
I gather the sawstop feature can be turned off to accomodate certain conditions, this is no different to someone removing a machinery guard or ignoring an alarm and is why ultimately safety comes down to the person, they can remove guards, work unsafe or ignore alarms even in an enviroment that is fully compliant with PUWER, LOLER, PSSR and other statutory regulations and why hazzard reduction works with the principle of ALARP.
Training doesn't make it impossible to cut off your hand on a tablesaw, the Sawstop does, providing it is functioning and or turned on. Again we are back to the person, we have all been there when a job is not going right and it can be tempting to do something unsafe as a result, but who makes that decision.
I gather the sawstop feature can be turned off to accomodate certain conditions, this is no different to someone removing a machinery guard or ignoring an alarm and is why ultimately safety comes down to the person, they can remove guards, work unsafe or ignore alarms even in an enviroment that is fully compliant with PUWER, LOLER, PSSR and other statutory regulations and why hazzard reduction works with the principle of ALARP.
Training doesn't make it impossible to cut off your hand on a tablesaw, the Sawstop does, providing it is functioning and or turned on. Again we are back to the person, we have all been there when a job is not going right and it can be tempting to do something unsafe as a result, but who makes that decision.
Sporky McGuffin
Light entertainer
No.
Safety starts with good management of the process. This is well established throughout industry and is well documented by the HSE and other bodies. "Safety starts with the worker" is exactly why the death and injury rate, particularly in construction, was so high before things started being done properly. Thousands of lives have been saved by moving away from that sort of thinking.
Lets just say that if where I work we took your views there could be a lot of fallout.
Sporky McGuffin
Light entertainer
But far fewer injuries.
Inspector
Nyuck, Nyuck, Nyuck!
Spectric you can bypass the brake but in order to do so it takes both hands, turn and hold the key while pulling the on button and waiting about ten seconds until a green light comes on. Then you can let go and make the cut. When you shut the saw off you have to repeat the actions to turn it back on. It always resets to brake on. The brake is intended to be a last ditch save when all the proper safety practices haven’t for whatever reason fail. Perhaps before ragging on the system you should go to the SawStop site and read the manual.
Pete
Pete
HamsterJam
Let’s take it apart to see what’s inside….
Spectric is correct when he says there are some people who will find a way to hurt themselves and Sawstop won’t stop them from bypassing the system and chopping fingers off.
However it does offer the potential to save anyone who makes a silly mistake from doing so.
As for ALARP (as low as reasonably practical), in my opinion there is no question that Sawstop lowers the risk and as Sawstop/Festool and Bosch have demonstrated it is practical - just a shame it is only available at Festool prices. It this last bit (the price) that means it might not be a reasonable choice for everyone.
However it does offer the potential to save anyone who makes a silly mistake from doing so.
As for ALARP (as low as reasonably practical), in my opinion there is no question that Sawstop lowers the risk and as Sawstop/Festool and Bosch have demonstrated it is practical - just a shame it is only available at Festool prices. It this last bit (the price) that means it might not be a reasonable choice for everyone.
It is a feature that saves your fingers and a crippling disability, and while a sound attitude to safety should always be promoted, accidents do happen , which is why we call them Accidents.
Statistics come from somewhere and even in the professional world of sound attitudes they can happen also. It's just one of those things.
Every year there are X amount of accidents, none of which were caused deliberately, and a range of factors were in play for this to happen
In our world, mainly working by ourselves, we should have a greater ability to concentrate on the job at hand, with none of the distractions you'll find in a big workshop, like other noises, people talking or talking to you. machine noise, that fav song on the radio, a sudden noise like someone dropping something etc etc probably a great number of things that can distract you from the job at hand.
While in the meat trade I sure didn't set out to cut or stab myself, but Ive 2 stabs to the leg and a range of hand scars In the trade we have chainmail, and all of my little accidents came about from not wearing it, though in my latter days I started wearing a mail glove and not only felt safer, but i prevented accidental contact with my blade, which actually happens all the ttime as you are in many cased working with your free hand 1/4" from the blade tip in deep boning out of carcasses, pulling the muscle back to access the bone etc.
But accidents as we know do happen, and a device, any device that prevents such a serious injury is a worthy addition to any workshop be that professional or amateur.
Working with a saw bench,or whatever, a serious accident while working alone is probably the greatest risk to life. At least we can remove one danger from that equation.
Sorry I have to say this. But if you are the type that believes that an attitude to safety relies purely on that alone, then you are being very foolish.
Statistics come from somewhere and even in the professional world of sound attitudes they can happen also. It's just one of those things.
Every year there are X amount of accidents, none of which were caused deliberately, and a range of factors were in play for this to happen
In our world, mainly working by ourselves, we should have a greater ability to concentrate on the job at hand, with none of the distractions you'll find in a big workshop, like other noises, people talking or talking to you. machine noise, that fav song on the radio, a sudden noise like someone dropping something etc etc probably a great number of things that can distract you from the job at hand.
While in the meat trade I sure didn't set out to cut or stab myself, but Ive 2 stabs to the leg and a range of hand scars
In the trade we have chainmail, and all of my little accidents came about from not wearing it, though in my latter days I started wearing a mail glove and not only felt safer, but i prevented accidental contact with my blade, which actually happens all the ttime as you are in many cased working with your free hand 1/4" from the blade tip in deep boning out of carcasses, pulling the muscle back to access the bone etc.But accidents as we know do happen, and a device, any device that prevents such a serious injury is a worthy addition to any workshop be that professional or amateur.
Working with a saw bench,or whatever, a serious accident while working alone is probably the greatest risk to life. At least we can remove one danger from that equation.
Sorry I have to say this. But if you are the type that believes that an attitude to safety relies purely on that alone, then you are being very foolish.
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You can see where it will end up, somebody will stick a finger into a saw to see if it is fitted with a safety device and get themselves onto the Darwin awards, reminds me of the guy who in a moment of madness used his finger to see if the turbo was spinning on an engine on the dyno bed, unfortunately it was and that was like the old school pencil sharpeners with the handle!
Sporky McGuffin
Light entertainer
If you genuinely believe that then you have a legal and moral obligation to replace all your tablesaws ASAP with ones with Sawstops, or you will be guilty of a serious breach of H&S. As in criminal offence serious.
Take a look at the Darwin awards and it may make you realise that what I said in jest could well happen, we like to think we are the top dog, most intelligent lifeform on Earth and ruler of all but our archilles heel is stupidity, and if hat is not bad enough we go out of our way to prove it.
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