Festool Vacuum Rip Off!

[aurrida]

i am afraid i cant argue about the aspects of law but its common practice with many goods and you cant just single out festool.

i am not really sure what the argument is though. ok i can buy a product at retail price x but is generally it is sold at discounted price y give or take a little. thats just a sales ploy.

i think we can all be rest assured that no seller is doing any consumer a favor. the price we pay is the market price.

any serious under cutting comes from grey imports and end of lines sales etc.

 

[paulm]

I am not sure of the Festool warranty, suspect it is three years ?

The Alto warranty is only one year I believe and that is why I am currently hesitating on spending £200 on one of their vacuums and might well go for a Fein (similar price, better warranty), Trend (significantly cheaper, same warranty) or Festool instead.

If Festool are offering better than one year on a model that Alto make and only warrant for one year then they will have to price that in accordingly I guess which is fair enough in my book and has some amount of perceived and actual value to me.

Cheers, Paul.

 

[CHJ]

Paul, I stand to be corrected but I believe all electrical items sold in Germany have to have a 3 year warrantee.

I think it is one of the EU decrees that UK retailers have found a way of avoiding.

I think this is why Lidl and the like have 3 years on their stuff.

 

[paulm]

Over here thought Chas I'm pretty sure I saw on Rutlands or D&M that the Alto's only have one year warranty, but the Feins three years, but I might have got confused looking at all the different models and sites !!!

Cheers, Paul.

 

[chippy1970]

At the end of the day all those people who think Festool's are too expensive should just look at the prices that they sell for secondhand on places like Ebay.

I am quiet confident that I could put my Festool stuff on Ebay and get a very good percentage of my money back if I wanted to not that I would :lol: , not sure I could do that with any other brand.

I wouldnt want to work with out them now ie today I was fitting some 20mm Walnut worktops to some vanity units I built for a client. To scribe them in I used my TS55 saw and rails and my Festool planer to trim the wavey bits. The saw cuts perfectly with no splintering across the grain and it takes seconds to set up and all that with hardly any dust because of the excellent extraction.

 

[Jake]

i am afraid i cant argue about the aspects of law but its common practice with many goods and you cant just single out festool.

I'm not - all price fixing is objectionable. That doesn't excuse the people who do it, just because others do as well

i am not really sure what the argument is though. ok i can buy a product at retail price x but is generally it is sold at discounted price y give or take a little. thats just a sales ploy.

Fixed discounts from list price are no different or less objectionable, but most goods aren't sold like that (in the UK at least) - the wholesale price is a wholesale price, and the retailer decides what the market will bear in terms of margin over the top of that.

i think we can all be rest assured that no seller is doing any consumer a favor. the price we pay is the market price.

Not if the manufacturer is dictating the retailer's price, you are not. That's the issue. Competition between retailers in a free market acts to reduce margins and therefore prices.

any serious under cutting comes from grey imports and end of lines sales etc.

That's true - if the manufacturer is fixing prices in its normal distribution channels.

 

[aurrida]

ok, looked at the law, its only illegal if there is an agreement between business competitors not between manufactures and there suppliers.

this is why hundreds of companies can fix their prices and force their supplies to comply. now i use the word force very loosely, its obviously in the sellers best interest to get the highest price for what they sell and not get into price wars with their competitors.

as i said there is no such thing as discounted products its purely a marketing ploy and meaningless.

 

[kmhphoto]

At the end of the day all those people who think Festool's are too expensive should just look at the prices that they sell for secondhand on places like Ebay.

I am quiet confident that I could put my Festool stuff on Ebay and get a very good percentage of my money back if I wanted to not that I would :lol: , not sure I could do that with any other brand.

I wouldnt want to work with out them now ie today I was fitting some 20mm Walnut worktops to some vanity units I built for a client. To scribe them in I used my TS55 saw and rails and my Festool planer to trim the wavey bits. The saw cuts perfectly with no splintering across the grain and it takes seconds to set up and all that with hardly any dust because of the excellent extraction.

I agree that most of the Festool range is extremely good. I have several including drills, saws, routers domino etc. which is why I encouraged my brother-in-law to look at the range when he was looking for an M Class vacuum.
I do find it amusing how many people have such deep down brand loyalty that they refuse to accept that Festool don't always get it right.
The new and "improved" MFT is now more expensive and smaller than the old model.
There's a thread on FestooOwnersGroup about the new table. Festool provide a video which shows how effective the stabilising braces are for it. At the start of the video the demonstrator gently touches the table. It wobbles and rocks back and forth. He attaches the braces and it's much more stable. Problem is, the braces are a £50 extra!

 

[Slim]

ok, looked at the law, its only illegal if there is an agreement between business competitors not between manufactures and there suppliers.

I don't believe that is true. Festool are still restricting the competition between retailers.

From an OFT article:

"There are many ways in which prices can be fixed. Price fixing may
involve fixing either the price itself or the components of a price,
setting a minimum price below which prices are not to be reduced,
establishing the amount or percentage by which prices are to be
increased, or establishing a range outside which prices are not to
move."

 

[Jake]

as i said there is no such thing as discounted products its purely a marketing ploy and meaningless.

Tell that to the farmers who supply supermarkets - that theory is pure beef-farming byproduct (if markets are working efficiently, without illegal price-fixing).

 

[aurrida]

first this discussion has arose from a 3rd hand comment from a customer via a seller. we dont know if the seller is telling the truth.

my understanding is festool can tell its suppliers what to sell its products for.

it cant agree with dewalt how much x tool should cost.

sellers cant agree between them what x tool should cost.

i am no lawyer so i dont really know but i do know its normal, can i i get a cheaper ipod, rolex or leica, no. do i like it no. can i even afford one, no.

i dont think i am being ripped off, i am paying for leading technology, innovation, quality and service. unfortunately fashion, media hype and occasionally just because it the best product keeps the prices high.

 

[Jake]

my understanding is festool can tell its suppliers what to sell its products for.

I have no idea what the law is like in Germany, but that is not the law here.

sellers cant agree between them what x tool should cost.

Cartels are illegal & unlawful as well, but so is price-fixing between manufacturer and retailer (with a few limited exceptions).

i am no lawyer so i dont really know

I am, and I do. (Sorry, couldn't resist).

but i do know its normal, can i i get a cheaper ipod, rolex or leica, no. do i like it no. can i even afford one, no.

Doesn't make it right. Is the ipod price fixed - I've no idea.

i dont think i am being ripped off, i am paying for leading technology, innovation, quality and service. unfortunately fashion, media hype and occasionally just because it the best product keeps the prices high.

Yes, all of that. And then maybe the unnecessary little extra for some price-fixing.

The reason price-fixers try to fix the price, of course, is to prevent retailers (under competitive pressures) from pressuring them to give discounts themselves at the wholesale level.

 

[track821ok]

Interesting thread - is anyone aware of the case finalised in March last year against Tooltechnic (the Australian Festool agents)? Quote below taken from Australian competition and consumer commission website

Tooltechnic Systems (Aust) Pty Ltd
s. 48. Alleged resale price maintenance
Latest update: Judgment was handed down on 21 March 2007. The Federal Court of Australia ordered a penalty of $125 000 against Tooltechnic Systems (Aust) Pty Ltd, the importer of Festool power tools, for resale price maintenance. Justice Kiefel in the Federal Court, Brisbane made the orders by consent in proceedings instituted by the ACCC. The court declared that Tooltechnic engaged in resale price maintenance in 2001 and 2002, granted injunctions for three years against similar conduct and ordered the company to pay costs of $25 000.

The ACCC took action in relation to conduct by two (now former) Tooltechnic sales managers, who went too far in implementing new dealership agreements by attempting to discourage retailers from discounting from recommended prices.

In settling the proceedings, Tooltechnic also gave a court-enforceable undertaking that it would implement a trade practices compliance program and Tooltechnic’s managing director, Mr Holger Schulz, gave a court-enforceable undertaking in relation to his training and supervision of staff.

 

[Jake]

first this discussion has arose from a 3rd hand comment from a customer via a seller. we dont know if the seller is telling the truth.

Just to correct that bit - I've been told this on three separate occasions by three separate retailers - and there at least two other similar experiences above from others. That's a lot of well-coordinated lying retailers.

 

[Jake]

That is interesting - thanks!

 

[track821ok]

The reason price-fixers try to fix the price, of course, is to prevent retailers (under competitive pressures) from pressuring them to give discounts themselves at the wholesale level.

^ words of wisdom.

My understanding is warranty cards for Festool are scrutinised to ensure no discount has been given - if any discount is found to have been given, then the retailer will have his net cost increased. Festool also have their own '3 strike and out system' from what I have been told (first hand)

Aurrida, do you by any chance have any connection with Festool?

ps - Jake, I'm in the loop too - but deep undercover causing mischief late on a friday night - bit like Tom Cruise all dressed in black, just without all those wires suspending me from an air vent 8) ccasion5:

 

[aurrida]

no, wish i did i might get a discount or not as the case may be .

i have no doubt that festool and many other companies that are able to maintain high prices do so legally, just. its a common accepted practice that is validated in the end by the consumer.

i just dont believe festool is ripping people off. those selling and manufacturing tools not fit for the job are. and i see a world of difference morally between the two.

in this case you have to decide whether the after service and guarantee is worth the extra cost. isn't that about choice and a free market.

 

[Jake]

i have no doubt that festool and many other companies that are able to maintain high prices do so legally, just. its a common accepted practice that is validated in the end by the consumer.

Well, we'll see what the OFT think. There have been many reputed companies who have found themselves with swingeing fines for unlawful anti-competitive behaviour before - I believe you can see an example just up there ^ involving a somewhat familiar name.

i just dont believe festool is ripping people off. those selling and manufacturing tools not fit for the job are. and i see a world of difference morally between the two.

I don't think anyone is saying they should be cheap - they are premium tools, and clearly cost more to produce, design, etc. That wouldn't make it right to act (allegedly) unlawfully to jack up prices even more by preventing your retailers from competing against each other.

in this case you have to decide whether the after service and guarantee is worth the extra cost. isn't that about choice and a free market.

Yes, a free market - apart from the fixed bits.

 

[BradNaylor]

I suspect we have a clash of cultures here.

From what aurrida is saying, retail price maintenance is within the law in Germany and is accepted business practice there.

Here in the UK however, it is illegal. A manufacturer or distributor sells products to the retailer at a certain price. The retail price should then be determined by the retailer alone. It is entirely up to him the level of margin he works on, and whether he wants to give incentives to regular customers or for big orders. In this way a competitive environment is encouraged which is in the interests of consumers.

The suspicion is that Festool works against this competitive environment by dictating to retailers the prices at which their products may be sold. A retailer who does not conform will suffer sanctions; ultimately they will no longer be supplied with further supplies.

The rights and wrongs of this are irrelevent. It is illegal in the UK, if not in Germany. If it is proved that Festool has been acting in this fahion - and the evidence seems to be mounting - then they face swingeing fines.

I will pop in and see my local Festool dealer this morning for a chat. My suspicion however, is that retailers are so under the Teutonic cosh of Festool that few of them would be willing to speak on the record.

I will report back to you Jake.

Cheers
Dan

 

[TheDudester]

I suspect we have a clash of cultures here.

From what aurrida is saying, retail price maintenance is within the law in Germany and is accepted business practice there.

Here in the UK however, it is illegal. A manufacturer or distributor sells products to the retailer at a certain price. The retail price should then be determined by the retailer alone. It is entirely up to him the level of margin he works on, and whether he wants to give incentives to regular customers or for big orders. In this way a competitive environment is encouraged which is in the interests of consumers.

The suspicion is that Festool works against this competitive environment by dictating to retailers the prices at which their products may be sold. A retailer who does not conform will suffer sanctions; ultimately they will no longer be supplied with further supplies.

The rights and wrongs of this are irrelevent. It is illegal in the UK, if not in Germany. If it is proved that Festool has been acting in this fahion - and the evidence seems to be mounting - then they face swingeing fines.

I will pop in and see my local Festool dealer this morning for a chat. My suspicion however, is that retailers are so under the Teutonic cosh of Festool that few of them would be willing to speak on the record.

I will report back to you Jake.

Cheers
Dan

I was told by a Festool Sales Rep once that a supplier had lost his Festool franchise because he was selling some Festool items at £5 less than anyone else.

Personally, I have purchased a number of Festool products from a local dealer. In each case the in-store price is reduced by 20% and never a penny more. Once with an online supplier, I was given a larger discount. I had to pay the full amount so the invoice would show the correct price but I was given a 'refund' to make up the extra discount.

Regards

D