Festool Vacuum Rip Off!

[tnimble]

Not for the first time Wikipedia is totally inaccurate!

I often find it inaccurate, one sided, totally wrong or conveying populist misbelieve.

If you came across it login and edit the article. In this case probably 'quote' the dictionary and place a sort paragraph at the end that sometimes the term rip-off is used to convey ones frustration on a price they choose or didn't choose to pay.

(I will not edit this article on wiki since I feel not entitled to edit language sensitive topics that are not in my natural tongue.)

 

[andycorleone]

call it what you want is a crime, two examples:

Festool OF 1010

http://www.rutlands.co.uk/cgi-bin/psProdDet.cgi/574239
£292.58

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page ... er=festool
$360.00 (about £180)

-------------------------------------
Fein Dustex 2

http://www.rutlands.co.uk/cgi-bin/psProdDet.cgi/DUSTEX2
£169.95

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page ... 20Products
$356.99 (about $£178)

 

[BradNaylor]

I think the important issue here is whether or not Festool is excercising a policy of retail price maintenance among it's distributors.

Anecdotal evidence I have heard first hand from my local dealer suggests that they are. He says that he is 'not allowed to offer discounts on Festool' otherwise he will lose his priviliges as an official distributor.

This would seem to be supported by the recent example of Axminster Power Tools sending out discount vouchers which specifically exclude Festool products.

If it is true that Festool are mainaitaining the retail prices of their brand in this way then as far as I am aware they are acting illegally. I am not a lawyer but I am pretty sure that this would constitute a flagrant breach of both UK and European law.

So there's your 'rip-off'!

Why don't we gather as much evidence as we can of this practice and report Festool to the Office of Fair Trading?

 

[Benchwayze]

And a fraud, or deception is only so, if the deceiver or fraudster actually gets away with it and the crime doesn't come to light until after the 'deal' is done.
If the victim suspects a 'scam', and doesn't fall for it, then it's just an attempt theft. Unless they changed some laws that is! :lol:

Daft innit?

But I know which vacuum I'd go for; even if I did have to paint it green!

John

 

[Benchwayze]

Hi Dan,
The thing is, if you were persuaded to pay a fair price for what you thought was a solid gold watch, which turned out to be plated, then you would have freely entered into a deal, you would later regret.

The seller, who knew the watch was not what it purported to be, would have deceived you; 'dishonestly appropriated' your money and you would have been ripped-off or scammed. But you still freely enterd into the agreement to begin with.

As I just said, if you don't fall for the 'scam', it's an attempt theft.
Deception and theft are the same thing. It's just that clever lawyers persuaded juries that, as the victim willingly parted with the cash, it couldn't be regarded as theft. Hence the introduction the 'Deception' part of the Theft Act.

So, call it what you like really. Dishonesty is dishonesty.

Scam, rip-off, blag, heist. Mostly police/underworld jargon that gets twsited and used by us all, when we've been 'done'; dishonestly or not!
What do you reckon? Have I convinced anyone, or am I just 'blagging' you all?
:wink:

Regards
John

 

[Jake]

I think the important issue here is whether or not Festool is excercising a policy of retail price maintenance among it's distributors.

Yup - I've long said this (since a certain tool catalogue said a few years ago that they couldn't discount under their contract).

Anecdotal evidence I have heard first hand from my local dealer suggests that they are. He says that he is 'not allowed to offer discounts on Festool' otherwise he will lose his priviliges as an official distributor.

I've heard the same from two power tool shops. There seem to be fixed percentages they can offer on accessories, but the fixed discounts on list price for tools seem to have disappeared (since the euro shot up, maybe).

This would seem to be supported by the recent example of Axminster Power Tools sending out discount vouchers which specifically exclude Festool products.

I hadn't clocked that - well spotted.

If it is true that Festool are mainaitaining the retail prices of their brand in this way then as far as I am aware they are acting illegally. I am not a lawyer but I am pretty sure that this would constitute a flagrant breach of both UK and European law.

UK law, certainly. Whether it would be an infringement of EU law would take a lot more thought - it would have to be having an effect on cross-border trade (but, as they fixed in Germany too, and presumably elsewhere, cf the recent thread, it probably is).

So there's your 'rip-off'!

Very much so.

Why don't we gather as much evidence as we can of this practice and report Festool to the Office of Fair Trading?

I'm up for that - if everyone can post with concrete examples of evidence of fixed prices - not just suspicions, but e.g. things which have been said to them by retailers with as much detail as possible (pm me the names). If someone wants to do a price-check on a few tools (to prove that everyone is selling them at the same price, if they are) that'd be helpful.

 

[Benchwayze]

Why don't we gather as much evidence as we can of this practice and report Festool to the Office of Fair Trading?

Good idea... But me, I just don't buy Festool.

I wouldn't go near their routers and that was just from seeing them used by Ramon Weston, some years ago.

They were ugly, didn't sound like the business and I much preferred my Elus anyhow. Oh... I don't like the sickly green coolur either! :mrgreen: .

Regards
John

 

[kmhphoto]

I think the important issue here is whether or not Festool is excercising a policy of retail price maintenance among it's distributors.

Anecdotal evidence I have heard first hand from my local dealer suggests that they are. He says that he is 'not allowed to offer discounts on Festool' otherwise he will lose his priviliges as an official distributor.

My local dealer said that he could not offer discounts and would have to refer directly to Festool to see f they would offer some incentive - a free guide rail, systainer or whatever. This was on an order for £6000+ worth of tools.

 

[tnimble]

I think the important issue here is whether or not Festool is excercising a policy of retail price maintenance among it's distributors.

I feel its not only Festool (however in the power tool world they tend to be more obvious about it). A few weeks or perhaps a couple of months ago a similar thing was topic on the Dutch consumer telly progam "Kassa". Mayor brands like Bosch, Whirlpool, AEG, etc refuse to stock stores that sell the machnies with to much discount. The brands determine a sales price which stores are restructed to with a small margin of discount possible.

And yes this is against law, but nothing seems to been done about it or at least it has no high priority.

 

[mister henderson]

Why don't we gather as much evidence as we can of this practice and report Festool to the Office of Fair Trading?

Good idea... But me, I just don't buy Festool.

I wouldn't go near their routers and that was just from seeing them used by Ramon Weston, some years ago.

They were ugly, didn't sound like the business and I much preferred my Elus anyhow. Oh... I don't like the sickly green coolur either! :mrgreen: .

Regards
John

I've got on a Festool OF1400 (having owned various other makes including ELU) and I have found it to be excellent in every way. Whether or not is it worth the etra money is a POV thing, from my POV they are.

 

[Benchwayze]

Hi Mr H..

Well it is a POV thing I suppose.
When my Elus pack up, I shall have to replace I know, so I shall be casting around the market. Mind you with the time I have left, I hope the Elus last me!
Regards
John

 

[chippy1970]

Why don't we gather as much evidence as we can of this practice and report Festool to the Office of Fair Trading?

Good idea... But me, I just don't buy Festool.

I wouldn't go near their routers and that was just from seeing them used by Ramon Weston, some years ago.

They were ugly, didn't sound like the business and I much preferred my Elus anyhow. Oh... I don't like the sickly green coolur either! :mrgreen: .

Regards
John

:shock: :shock: :shock:

You must be one of the only people who thinks so.

Most people think Festool routers are great.

I am about to buy the OF1400 which is an excellent router very well thought out design. I already own an Elu96e, dewalt626 and Trend T5 I am flogging the T5 hardly used it and its crap.

I have had the Elu for around 15 -20 years I think that was the best of its time shame they dont make them any more.

 

[Benchwayze]

Hi Chippy,

That's about the age of my 177's and Mof's. I have them serviced regularly in Aston and I never have any probs with them. The worst state they get in is when I invert them in my table, so I bought a deWalt just for that job. Won't matter so much when that gets full of dust, as it will do even with vacuum disposal!

I don't know about Trend... Never even heard one running!

If I am the only one who doesn't like Festool, then I always was unique! I don't like Japanese tools either, for that matter. Especially the pull-saws and planes! I guess I am a dinosaur.. But I is happy...

Alla Best
John

 

[aurrida]

what is with the festool witch hunt. generally all good tools have a place in the market. festool supply industrial rated tools for people who need industrial rated tools. in this market money is less of a issue, reliability and service is.

who else has such an extensive, innovative range of products for the professional, no one.


can you get mercedes, leica or bmw at discounted prices or rolex, prada or lotus. no

i have not checked but i would like to know how many people here have brought a festool and been disappointed? or, have a complaint about the quality? not many i think. now how many have had problems with other makes?

finally, germans dont generally do cheap. its a different mentality. they buy the best and expect it to last a life time. quality is of greater consideration than price.

 

[Benchwayze]

Well, I never mentioned price. I just don't go for Festool .

Fact is, Continental prices don't sit well with the British Minimum Wage. In other words most can't afford to buy the best.

Loads of BMW's and Mercs here, but the biggest percentage of them are bought used! So I am informed by a friend who is in the Motor trade.

Regards.
John :wink:

 

[Jake]

I love Festool tools, but that doesn't make price-fixing (if they are) in any way acceptable.

 

[Slim]

who else has such an extensive, innovative range of products for the professional, no one.

This isn't an innovative product though is it? It is made by someone else. Then quite considerably increased in price, just because it is stamped with the Festool brand.

No-one here is complaining about quality. I am sure like most Festool products, it will be the muts nuts.

finally, germans dont generally do cheap. its a different mentality. they buy the best and expect it to last a life time. quality is of greater consideration than price

Are you saying that you would buy the Festool over the Nilfisk because it is more expensive?

As far as I can see, Festool are taking their customers for a ride.

 

[mister henderson]

Trend T5 I am flogging the T5 hardly used it and its crap.

Funny, I've got 2 (I like to leave them set up for the specific jobs they do) and I've found mine to be very good. I do have an old Elu 96, so I do have a basis for comparison. I realise the Trends won't last as long, but they each cost less than the Elu when I bought it more than 20 years ago I remember it being a major purchase, something like £150ish

 

[aurrida]

festool comes with a three year warranty, 48 hour service turn around. nilfisk 2 year domestic warranty and the recommended list price is the same. ok you can get it discounted.

if the warranty and service backup are important then you will see the difference in cost as worth it.

 

[Jake]

I don't care what the absolute price difference is - that's supply and demand. If Festool want to charge more to their retailers than Nilfisk do to theirs, they are perfectly within their rights to do so. Some of it might be 'brand value', some of it might be spec changes, some of it might be additional warranty costs etc - it's up to the customer to decide which is worth what after the retailer has added their cut.

What they shouldn't be doing - if they are - is to dictate to their retailers what retail price is that they can sell at - that should be left to competition between the retailers to decide.

Retail price-fixing is a crime (literally).