Festool prices.

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Doug B

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I`ve recently been doing some surfing to find a deal on a Domino.
What i`ve found so far, is all the retailers are advertising the machines at the same price. Exactly the same price.
Now i find this a little strange, with every other power tool there is usually some one selling the item a little cheaper, even if it`s only pence. But not Festool.
I thought price fixing was illegal, but this appears to be happening with my search for a Domino.
Am i right? Or does anyone know of a supplier who will discount Festool products.
 
I think this subject has been covered on at least more than one occasion on this forum in the past, I did some ‘window shopping’ a little while ago for a Festool product, speaking both to the importer (at a demo show) and various retailers, the importer told me that the margins to the retailers were tighter due to the expense of manufacturing to a much higher standard and therefore there would not be any room for a further discount. However more than one retailer indicated that their dealership could be threatened if they were to undercut another Festool dealer publicly, I was told Festool were particularly hot on machinery being discounted.
I did not go down this route but I was told there could be scope for the dealer to sell me a second (non Festool) Powertool, this would for example be sold to me for a vastly discounted price thereby making a saving overall. Two for the price of one if you like. This would assume that you were in the market for say a drill as well as the Domino.
At the end of the day Festool in common with some other German manufactures do make high quality products. I remember asking my dad when I was a nipper how do I know what something is worth? His answer was its worth what ever you are prepared to pay for it!


Mike
 
Just bought one 2 days ago, tried all avenues to obtain a good deal. Price fixing is exactly what they do and I hope that somebody takes them to task about it, EU for example. I got the Systainer pack with the extra dominos and cutters for 1/2 price at the same time. I was going to wait to buy that part in May when it will come with the new 4mm bit inc, but guess what, the price will go up and the new price increase will also kick in.
Festool are taking full advantage, while they can, before another maker makes some rival to it! The other products they make are overpriced for what they are IMO and I would/will not buy any other of their tools.
 
So it is price fixing!!!
Also the retail margins can not be that tight if they can discount by 50 percent the systainer pack with extra dominos & cutters, by the same manufacturer.
Thanks for the replies, i`m in no way doubting the quality of their tools, just the legality of their pricing structure, whether done openly or by vailed threat to the retailer.
 
Pretty open threats, as I understand it. As in, I've heard, actually written in to the contracts!

For all enquiries, guidance on the work of OFT and to report anti-competitive or other behaviour by a trader or traders, please contact OFT Enquiries and Reporting Centre on 08457 22 44 99. Please be aware that OFT cannot provide advice or assistance to individual consumers or traders.

I've reported it before, but the more calls they get, the more they are likely to actually start an investigation.
 
Nice one Jake. I reckon we should all give the OFT a ring, on one particular day - a kind of organised UKW protest! Or start an on-line petition to go present to the OFT.

Cheers

Karl
 
Been there got nowhere. Here's what I wrote to the OFT

"Having being the market to buy a certain type of powertool (a Festool Domino jointing machine) I checked the internet to find the best price however virtually every dealer is selling this item at the same price(£511 inc vat +/- £1). I went down to my local dealer who quoted exactly the same price. I asked for a discount but was told that the company or distributor wont allow them to discount any of Festools range of tools. He often gives me upto a 20% on virtually every other brand of tool. He said it's the same for all the suppliers. They have been told by Festool head office that they can discount accessories by up to 10% but no discount is allowed on the tools themselves. The traders have been told that if they are caught selling below the rrp then they will not be supplied with any more tools in the future. The fact that all the traders are selling at the same price appears to back this up. An discount apparently has to be o.k.'s with Festools head office. Surely this is at least uncompetitive behaviour and blatant price fixing not to mention the blackmailing of the traders.
What can be done about this?"



The reply,

"By way of background, the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) is responsible for making markets work well for consumers. We achieve this by promoting and protecting consumer interests throughout the UK, while ensuring that businesses are fair and competitive. Our primary duties include the enforcement of competition law, and the application of consumer protection legislation in respect of matters that adversely affect the collective interests of UK consumers.

The main law covering competition in the UK is the Competition Act 1998 (the Act). In brief, the Act contains two main prohibitions. The Chapter I prohibition prohibits price fixing or other anti-competitive agreements which prevent, restrict or distort competition. The Chapter II prohibition prohibits conduct by companies which amounts to an abuse of a dominant position.

The Chapter I prohibition prohibits agreements that ‘directly or indirectly fix purchase or selling prices or any other trading conditions’. This includes agreements where suppliers and retailers have agreed to set a minimum price below which prices are not to be reduced, a practice known as ‘resale price maintenance’. Resale price maintenance is considered by the OFT to be a serious infringement because it restricts a company’s ability to set its own prices, which harms price competition for consumers.

However, before any formal action can be taken under the Act, we would need evidence to suggest that the prices of these products are the result of some form of agreement. Although you note that there is little variation in the pricing of Festool power tools, we would require something more concrete in terms of written evidence of an agreement between Festool and suppliers to justify further investigation under the Act.


We appreciate the time you have taken in bringing this matter to our attention. Our intention, at this time, not to make further enquiries into this complaint does not preclude the OFT from revisiting the matter should further information come to our attention.

Yours sincerely"

So I wrote the same thing to Festool directly to which they responded...

"Thank you for your E-mail. Please accept my apologizes for the late answer, but I hope to address your concerns in full.

The business model used means that the supply of our products throughout the world is via distributors and we have no direct contact with the trade ourselves. We sell our products to distributors who then sell them to the trade, such as yourself.

Each distributor to whom we sell our products enters into an agreement with us which specifies the process by which it will sell our products. This ensures that our high standards are met so that the name of the company is not tarnished by the distributor; this is similar to the maintenance of goodwill in the instance of a franchise. A Recommended Retail Price is suggested for the products sold. Our distributor contracts are sent to the Office of Fair Trading before being signed by the parties to ensure that they fully comply with all relevant legal requirements including competition law.

The price paid to us by the distributor is fixed, it is not a percentage of the final selling price and it does not fluctuate, regardless of how much the product is sold for to the eventual purchaser.

We hope the above allays your concerns in this matter however if you have any further questions please do not hesitate to contact us.

Best Regards"


To be fair, at least they both responded. The complete lack of any bad attitude in the reply suggests to me that this is a question they are used to. I'd say that if you think its wrong then write the OFT a letter to but as for me I've already done my part.
 
Doug B":3cghtza8 said:
I`ve recently been doing some surfing to find a deal on a Domino.
What i`ve found so far, is all the retailers are advertising the machines at the same price. Exactly the same price.
Now i find this a little strange, with every other power tool there is usually some one selling the item a little cheaper, even if it`s only pence. But not Festool.
I thought price fixing was illegal, but this appears to be happening with my search for a Domino.
Am i right? Or does anyone know of a supplier who will discount Festool products.

Here we go again :roll: this subject has been covered so many times do a search you will see.

What you need to do is ask for free accessories or something like that when you visit your Festool dealer if they are a good one then they will do that instead of a discount. You may say they are all the exact same price but in my experience so far I have got things cheaper by shopping around.
 
Yes Doug, Chippy1970 is right its been done to death which is why I say I've done my part. It gets a bit tiresome after a while. The fact is you can't get a discount and the OFT dont want to know so you either accept it or you don't. Chippy may say you can get a discount but in my opinion being given extra stuff you didn't need or ask for free isn't a discount, its something else.
 
p111dom":10nrqax9 said:
Yes Doug, Chippy1970 is right its been done to death which is why I say I've done my part. It gets a bit tiresome after a while. The fact is you can't get a discount and the OFT dont want to know so you either accept it or you don't. Chippy may say you can get a discount but in my opinion being given extra stuff you didn't need or ask for free isn't a discount, its something else.

Oh right so when I got my TS55 rail saw I didnt need the extra 1400 rail they threw in for free :roll: :roll: :roll:

p111dom you really have to start thinking before you post on here I was not talking about free things I didnt need, my dealer would throw in stuff I actually ask for if I am spending enough money.

What I actually do is put a package of things I need say for example saw 2 raills clamps spare blade etc etc then work out the prices off the internet then go to a dealer and see what they can come up with in my case they did one rail for free.
 
I see that prices for tools do not seem to be discounted much at all these days.

I made enquires to buy a new German Felder table saw/Spindle moulder and was offered some discount, Felder put their prices up in January so discount didn't even bring the price down to what it was before increase, and my budget was £9,500.00 and I even increased it to £10,000.00 but they would not go below £10,658.00 so missed a sale.

It amazes me with the tightness of money and jobs companys can still put prices up and expect a sale, I know of someone that was looking for a motorhome and was looking at buying a German made Hymer before Christmas and was told that there was going to be a price increase in January of £13,000.00 on the model he was looking at It's Amazing.

You have to buy what you need and what will hopefully last a lifetime, the prices for Festool are expensive because they know that you are only going to buy one of anything because they last.
 
I know this has been done to death but been looking up EU law on this and there is an email address to send complaints to on this very subject for consumers.

Companies conclude agreements every day: are they all illegal?
There are certain types of agreements which are particularly harmful for competition and are therefore almost always prohibited, namely secret cartels and other agreements in which competitors agree to fix prices, to limit production or to share markets or customers between them. Agreements between a producer and its distributors may also be prohibited, especially if they fix resale prices.



[email protected]
Alternatively, you can write a letter to:

European Commission
Directorate-General for Competition
Antitrust Registry
B-1049 Brussels
Belgium

Please indicate your name and address, identify the firms and products concerned and describe clearly the practice you have observed. This will help the European Commission to detect problems in the market and can be the starting point for an investigation.

My email will be sent today, please take the time to do it too!
 
chippy1970":kjbg6fup said:
Oh right so when I got my TS55 rail saw I didnt need the extra 1400 rail they threw in for free :roll: :roll: :roll:

p111dom you really have to start thinking before you post on here I was not talking about free things I didnt need, my dealer would throw in stuff I actually ask for if I am spending enough money.

What I actually do is put a package of things I need say for example saw 2 raills clamps spare blade etc etc then work out the prices off the internet then go to a dealer and see what they can come up with in my case they did one rail for free.

Good for you chippy that you need all that stuff but just because that suits you don't you think its a bit presumptious to think that thats the same for everyone? Most people with a Domino say they only use one or two sizes so that being the case why would someone want say a deal on the other sized cutters or maybe the round stock attachment if they're never going to use it. Weren't you just posting on another thread that two 1.4m rails on the TS55 were a pain so you bought a longer one? So where was the added value for you? You are a trades person who obviously spends a lot on tools a a perticular dealer. Its your livelyhood so that's fine but most people on here are ameuters. This is a hobby and as such there are financial constraints when you are not making money from it. With that in mind perhaps you should consider that the majority of people on the forum are in that position and post accordingly. Spending 1000's on a regular basis on Festool stuff maybe normal for you but for myself like others I tend to shop around for the best deal of which for basic Festool stuff, there are none.

Its all imaterial anyway. The origional post was as to whether Festool fix their prices to which the answer is yes. And was there anything that could be done about it to which from my experience the answer is no.
 
To be precise it is TTS Tooltechnic System GB Limited (the distributor company which used to be Minden) who are the price-fixers, not Festool themselves.

However, the price-fixing appears to be common across many different countries, so some reasonable suppositions could be drawn that the practice is lets say, not discouraged.
 
I agree Jake but when there is a sole distributor for a product line than surely the manufacturer and distributor effectively become one and the same.
 
What may be needed is for some other manufacturer to make a similar bit of kit to the Domino...at present no-one does. I'm sure that if a competitor produced a bit of kit equally as good that did the same job, Festool prices would be reflected in the market place. I suspect though that the Dom is completely covered by patents, hence no clones - Rob
 
I think you're correct woodbloke but it does go both ways hence the reason for the re-design of the front fence on the Domino after I believe it was found that Festool had breached a design patent by Mafell on the round cylinderical stops. People don't seem to like the new design but I've had both and find them a much of a muchness.
 
Hi

On another email forum for furniture makers there has recently been some mutterings about the accuracy of the domino jointer (unusual I know for a festool machine). So perhaps if a competitor came onto the market with a good machine there would be an opening for them.

Chris
 
woodbloke":2ndnp4rj said:
What may be needed is for some other manufacturer to make a similar bit of kit to the Domino...at present no-one does. I'm sure that if a competitor produced a bit of kit equally as good that did the same job, Festool prices would be reflected in the market place. I suspect though that the Dom is completely covered by patents, hence no clones - Rob

Doesn't seem to have happened with the plunge saw / guide rail - dewalt, makita and mafell are all now in the market (mafell have been for some time) but Festool price doesn't seem to have dropped. At the end of the day if you want quality tools you have to pay for them.

Steve
 
Not unusual at all I'm afraid. I had terrible problems with mine resulting in it going back to Festool a couple of times and eventually they replaced the entire front fence assembly which is why I have experience of both old and new designs. As far as I can tell, they seem to have a problem at the factory with the jig that inserts the two bars into the front cast aluminium fence assembly. It appears that these are either a forced fit or the casting is heated up and expands and then contracts around the bars while cooling in some sort of jig. Either way they are certainly not bolted on and have no adjustment. Because the Domino works from oposite sides (ways around) any alignment error with the bars is doubled up meaning that even tolerances of only a few thou which would be perfectly acceptable on most woodworking machinery become problematic with the Domino. Mine is sorted now for which I'm thankful to Festool for but it took them 6 months to sort it out. The US Festool forum recons that its a common problem with only 1 in 5 Dominos being on the money. The guys on there recomend that if you buy it new and its out, keep returning it and demand a replacement machine till you get one that cuts correctly. Only right I guess for the money it costs. I think I recall reading that in the worst case, some poor chappy had 8 machines before he got one that cut correctly. That said there are several people on this forum who have had only one from new and it cuts fine. It could be that they are just lucky or it could be that Festool has ammended its manufacturing process. I would have thought the latter but on initial contact with them about the Domino problem, despite reading lots on the internet about Domino accuracy problems, they said they had not heard anything and that it was not a known problem. Either way, in certain circumstances its the best tool for the job. In others not so. Its ergonomically flawed in some ways IMO and way to expensive for what it does but as said by others, there's no direct competitor so it's the Domino or bust. The only remotely comparable machine is the dowel jointer by Mafell.
 

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