Fence upgrades

[Slim]

I remember some posts recently with people asking about upgrading both tablesaw and bandsaw fences. I can't find the threads so I have had to start a new one.

I have just come accross this company. Their kit looks pretty good, and they are not stupedly overpriced like the others I have seen. Also to please Scrit :wink: , they offer a short fence option. The router table extension looks good as well I might consider this option in the future.

Apologies if this has been posted before

 

[Scrit]

Also to please Scrit :wink: , they offer a short fence option.

It's not to please me, at all....... If you use a straight through fence without an auxilliary short fence plate you are risking a kicklback when ripping reaction timber. It's just a pity that the much-vaunted Biesmeyer is completely deficient inn that respect which gives it a 3/10 in my books. It's nice to see that finally at least one American company has some understanding of the problems :roll:

Aren't MuleCab supposed to be importing the Oneida cyclones into the UK?

Scrit

 

[Slim]

It's not to please me, at all....... If you use a straight through fence without an auxilliary short fence plate you are risking a kicklback when ripping reaction timber.

I know scrit, I was only winding you up.

 

[Scrit]

[-X

 

[jonny boy]

Hi,
3 out of 10 for a biesmeyer!! You must be hard to please. If you can afford a Biesmeyer T square, then you can afford the full length auxilary fence for it to stop the kickback!!.
cheers,
jon.

 

[Scrit]

3 out of 10 for a Biesmeyer!! You must be hard to please.

No I've had years of using Wadkin, Altendorf, SCM, Casadei, Sedgwick and other equipment with properly designed and engineered fences. Any fence which through it's design allows kickback situations to occur is a poor one. British and European table saws (including smaller machines like Scheppach and Kity) have generally adopted a 2-part sliding plate 2-position (high/low) rip fence, in many cases as long ago as 35 or more years ago. The only American fence on smaller machines which corresponds to that is the Delta Unifence.

If you can afford a Biesmeyer T square, then you can afford the full length auxilary fence for it to stop the kickback!!

If there is a full length auxilliary fence then it won't make any difference as far as kickback goes - to reduce kickback potential a saw needs to have a close-fitting riving knife and a rip fence plate/auxilliary rip fence plate which can be positioned to stop just behind the front tooth of the blade. If it goes through then you'll still have the potential for kickback when ripping reaction timber or case-hardened MFC. And if the design were any good that facility wouldn't be an option - it would come as standard.

The other b*mm*r about these American fences is that on some saws their height means they foul the crown guard when making very narrow cuts, especially bevel edge ones. The cure, of course, is to make a low auxilliary rip fence. But why should you need to modify this much hyped fence design? It should work properly out of the box. They may be better than the very second rate fences supplied with many Chiwanese table saws, but let's not pretend that they are engineering masterpieces. They are not. Hence 3 out of 10 and the remark "Could/should do better!" in red ink

Scrit

Who has now donned tin helmet and taken to the trench outside the workshop to await incoming :roll:

 

[jonny boy]

Hi,
They must be doing something right, It has to be america's best selling aftermarket fence and they have a lot to choose from. I think like you say, the one thing to do to avoid a tablesaw accident is to keep the knife fitted or your asking for trouble.

jon.

 

[Shadowfax]

They must be doing something right, It has to be america's best selling aftermarket fence

Doesn't say much for the Americans then, does it?
Where do riving knives sit in relation to this US sales feat, then?
Just a thought.

SF

 

[jonny boy]

SF, dont understand what you mean about the last question of riving knives.

jon.

 

[Shadowfax]

Sorry Jon
I think I was being a bit obscure there.
What I meant was our friends over the pond seem to be taking a long time to understand the benefits of a riving knife. They are also taking a very long time to see how a long fence can be a very mixed blessing.
Safety in woodworking is not one of their highest priorities, despite what they say. They don't like to guard a lot of things that we do.
I am being very, very general here and that is always a dangerous thing but I guess folks will see what I am getting at.
Cheers.

SF

 

[jonny boy]

Hi,
A woodworking machine can be as dangerous or safe as the person using it. Many aftermarket parts or attachments have both pros and cons but the basic underlying responsibility has to lay with the user. You could use your tablesaw with no riving knife fitted and never use push sticks and not have any incidents at all. On the other hand, you can have all the guards and short fences you like and still get a peice thrown back at you. Yes, they would make it less likely but not a guarantee. The Biesmeyer fence that this discussion was based on, is a good fence, it might not be as safe as another fence but still a good fence. If there was any inherrent danger of using one, then i'm almost certain that they wouldn't be as popular as they are. After all, if you think of the people who you know or seen using one, you'll find that they are serious about their woodwork and know about the dangers of machines. I bet that someone on this forum has one and would recommend it.
cheers,
jon.

 

[Shadowfax]

Jon
What I am saying is the Beismeyer fence is probably well made and it is undoubtedly popular in the USA. It is, however, not the best of designs from a pure safety point of view, as Scrit has pointed out.
The Americans obviously love the thing but that does not mean it is the best they could have, because it is based on an ancient design philosophy which does not have the best safe working practices "built in". It could have a sliding secondary fence but it does not. It has a secondary fence available as an option. If the safety aspect was considered crucial by the makers it would be part of the original deal.
That is all I am saying.
Anyone can use or misuse any piece of equipment but the most sensible manufacturers supply the most appropriate equipment as standard. They have no control over how their stuff is treated but at least in this country we have been using riving knives and short fences for donkeys' years because we know they work. The Americans, as I said, are a long way behind. Safety should be included in the price, not sold as an afterthought.
So who is right?
I'm not arguing - just putting a point of view.
I used to work in a very safety-conscious job, firefighting, and I know the Americans have a pretty lousy record in that field too!
Perhaps, their somewhat gung-ho fire fighters are woodworkers in their spare time!
Best wishes.

SF

 

[mailee]

Well to get back to the subject in hand, Yes I have seen these fences as they advertise each month in the back of GW. I had thought about one myself until I built my own. Got to agree it does look a good bit of kit for the money doesn't it? :wink:

 

[Shadowfax]

Yes, getting back to the original subject.
It does look like a good piece of kit but I would certainly get the short fence as well. "Adds a new dimension", they say!
If it is as solid as they reckon it should be worth the investment and, as you say, it is not stupidly overpriced.
It should last a very long time. Being what it is I guess it would be easy to transfer it to other machines in the future, too.
Cheers.

SF

 

[ecp]

I have a Scheppach on which I am changing the table (subject of another thread) and have to replace the fence as a result.

I have one of the Accusquare (Mulecab) fences on order and am expecting it next week (delayed delivery at my request)

From what I have seen of it, it looks good - not a bad price either.

I looked at this companies Canadian web site a couple of years ago, and at that time their fence was very similar to the Biesmeyer, but they have replaced it with this new design - for whatever reason.

Nick Gibbs at Traditional Woodworking did a review of it back in May this year and actually bought one for his Scheppach.

I'll post back when I've set it up - for those interested.

 

[Scrit]

Where do riving knives sit in relation to this US sales feat, then?

Currently they don't - in fence design the Americans lag more than 30 years behind Europe, and riving knives will only be mandated by OSHA/UL from 2014, with new designs having them from about 2010 (I'll check and confirm the actual years). Recently there have been three saws introduced with riving knives, the SawStop, the Laguna and the PowerMatic PM2000. As yet they are a tiny percentage of the market

The Biesmeyer fence that this discussion was based on, is a good fence, it might not be as safe as another fence but still a good fence. If there was any inherrent danger of using one, then I'm almost certain that they wouldn't be as popular as they are.

They are more accurate and more rigid than the OEM rip fences on a lot of American saws benches - they are, however, sold in the main to untrained and inexperienced woodworkers and the design is wrong in both theory and in practice. Yes, you might get away with using a fence for years and have no kickback, but the amount of timber I machine tells me that it will eventually happen.

The fact that American machinery manufacturers deliver a sub-standard product (splitter rather than riving knife, poor rip fence in general) which is potentially illegal in the EU is perhaps more indicative of the cheeseparing that goes on in US industry and the almost complete disregard they seem to have for consumer safety

Scrit

 

[ecp]

Just as a matter of interest, the Powermatic use the original Accusquare fence (the one that looks similar to the Biesmeyer).

I wonder if they will change it when they run out of stock of the current one.
http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPRES. ... UM=135-629

 

[OPJ]

Sorry Scrit, I always thought the 'splitter' was simply an American translation of what we call a 'riving knife' (ie. dado or housing joint), am I mistaken?

The Table Saw fence got very good remarks in an issue of Good Woodworking a couple of months back while Andy King did make a note about the full-length of the fence and the imminent dangers of kickback. You could always knock something cheap out of MDF to solve this problem though, as Steve Maskery did recently.

Their bandsaw fence looks quite smart though. The one that came with my SIP 12" Bandsaw is pretty poor really. It's a pain to adjust to the cutting line as the screws are underneath the fence, meaning you have to remove it first! It also doesn't have a truly flat face. It's not at 90 degrees to the table.

 

[Scrit]

Sorry Scrit, I always thought the 'splitter' was simply an American translation of what we call a 'riving knife' (ie. dado or housing joint), am I mistaken?

Yes. They are not quite the same thing. A riving knife is attached to the rise and fall mechanism on the trunion (the bit which allows the blade to tilt) in such a way that it's height and anlgel of tilt are automatically the same as the blade. A riving knife is also normally positioned no more than 3 or 4mm behind the blade, frequently closer. This means in effect that the rise and fall mechanism for the blade is almost always a true vertical rise and fall.

Splitters are variously attached to the rear of the saw bench or the trunion in some instances. This means that not all splitters can tilt with the blade (on some machines tilting is effected manually) and splitters are also not normally adjustable for height of cut. Because of this, splitters tend to be long and floppy, go out of alignment easily and are often postioned 10mm or more behind the blade reducing their effectiveness, and as almost all American-style table saws use a rise and fall mechanism which pivots around a pivot bolt they needs must have to have a splitter rather than a riving knife as there would be n way to keey the position of the riving knife the same relative to the blade. In other words they are an ineffective kludge.

The Table Saw fence got very good remarks in an issue of Good Woodworking a couple of months back while Andy King did make a note about the full-length of the fence and the imminent dangers of kickback. You could always knock something cheap out of MDF to solve this problem though, as Steve Maskery did recently.

My point, though, was that the manufacturer should have designed this in! They didn't. That Steve, myself and others KNOW what the problem is (and how to cure it) is one thing - the manufacturer was still deficient in not applying basic safety principles which are well known and documented and which have been for more than 80 years. Maybe I'm only saying that because I spent part of my morning one day this week ripping up hardwood which had so much tension in it that it was clamping itself to the riving knife and required frequent stops and the hammering-in of wedges to continue sawing. That sawing was done on a 40 year old rip saw - with a short rip fence.......

Scrit