Fed up with the hyperbole of the referendum?

[Yorkshire Sam]

Are you like me wanting to hear a balanced argument about EU? Fed up of being scared or lied to by the politicians of both camps?
Came across a site which gives a lot of facts about Britain and the EU. Its from the Economic Research council at Kings College and does not appear to be biased either for and against brexit but lays facts out under various subject heading for those wishing to know more. I found it fascinating reading and learned a lot about the EU and about how many untruths (lies to you an me!) all the politicians are spouting.
It certainly gave me a new insight and may have even changed the way I might vote.
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/about-us/

It brought to mind one of my fathers favourite sayings ... A sure way of telling when politicians are lying to you is to look at their face... are their lips moving?

 

[Wuffles]

I like that, thank you.

Watched this over my sandwich: http://ukandeu.ac.uk/multimedia/eu-budg ... -debunked/

I did hear on the News Quiz the other day that the whole thing is a p*ssing contest between Cameron and Boris - they should just have a scrap and be done with it {cue Star Trek fight music}. Make it Pay Per View, could probably save the NHS with the revenue generated.

 

[NazNomad]

The rich and powerful are pi$$ing on us and the media is telling us that it's raining.

 

[MIGNAL]

It is a scrap between Cameron and Floppy hair. Surely the winner then leads the Tory party.

 

[Racers]

400 Quatloos on the floppy haired one.


Pete

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I'd be a tad suspicious about anything that claims to be 'neutral' or 'unbiased' in this debate. There seem to be a lot of people and organisations about with veiled agendas.

To me, the basic questions are;

1) Who governs.
2) In who's interests.
3) To whom are they accountable.

It might be worth re-reading the posted link with those questions in mind before making a decision about which way to vote.

 

[lurker]

Politicians are only interested in number one.
They are all a bunch of liars

Although I am going to vote out, most of the out politicians are completely odious.
True the in lot are not much better
Hopefully Johnson will to be seen for the conman and chancer he is.

 

[graduate_owner]

I think the main problem is that nobody really knows what will happen if we leave, so the public is being fed a diet of supposition from both sides. And if the 'experts' don't really know, how can we mere mortals know which way to vote.
Overall I am not sure that this is the sort of decision that should be made by referendum.

K

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Nobody really knows what will happen if we stay in - nobody really knows now what we would be staying in.
I suppose it would be OK as long as we elect a government that meets EU approval.

 

[lurker]

Can you remember how we were doomed if we did not join the euro?

I believe (am not sure) we have Gordon brown to thank for keeping us out of that fiasco

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Only because he loathed Blair, not because he had any brains.

 

[Eric The Viking]

Many (most) academic organisations receive huge amounts from the EU. They long ago realised you had to get 'em young, and have been pushing propaganda at schools and universities for decades. Some even got pulped in the early noughties when it was too extreme (cartoon books for children showing Eurosceptics in Nazi costumes, IIRC).

In universities there are all sorts of prizes, especially in the arts, and research grants. It's not free. We're actually paying for our children to be indoctrinated through our taxes. Like global warming, nobody gets a grant for being a sceptic. Go figure, as the Yanks say.

I have a copy of Bernard Connolly's (in)famous book "The Rotten Heart of Europe". It's a rare hardback first edition, given to me by a good friend who has now taken US citizenship. It's rare, because the EU tried to suppress it.

Connolly wrote it whilst working as an economist for the European Commission, and it talks about the corruption at the heart of the organisation. He was suspended, sacked and then prosecuted in the European Court for writing it. The prosecutor alleged that attacking the European project was a crime "akin to blasphemy" in the EU. It was a staggering statement for the C21st, and I'm not sure if he wanted Connolly stoned or drawn+quartered, but you get the idea (go Google it!). Unsurprisingly, it wasn't covered much in the British papers (the days of Bliar), but the Torygraph did run something at the time:
Here and Here.
I note with wry amusement that the first report includes Prodi (then EU President) blaming "American Economic Mismanagement" for the problems with the Euro!

The final decision was that preventing criticism of the EU trumps European human rights legisaltion and was akin to treason (they backpedalled on the blasphemy thing).

For me it's not about short term economics. Its about the culture of the state my children and grandchildren will live in. Spilling state secrets is one thing, but suppressing free speech because it implicates corrupt bureaucrats? Don't expect it to end well, when it inevitably does end.

E.

PS: obviously, we should take the red pill.

 

[devonwoody]

In the past other countries have voted out, and within a short period the Eu comes back with a deal for the country that voted out and then they vote back in.

So its out for me which is a win win, and if they do not make an offer I am still satisfied.

 

[DiscoStu]

I made my decision a couple of weeks ago and in the end it came down to democracy. In the UK we can vote to get rid of our government every few years. We have no such vote in Europe and as a country the European laws are forced upon us. Immigration is a perfect example. I'm not against immigration or freedom of travel but you can't have a large net gain and not have additional resources such as Schools, roads etc. I'd rather have the UK responsible for its own issues. Our economy is certainly better without Europe so why not everything else?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Jacob]

Many (most) academic organisations receive huge amounts from the EU. They long ago realised you had to get 'em young, and have been pushing propaganda at schools and universities for decades. Some even got pulped in the early noughties when it was too extreme (cartoon books for children showing Eurosceptics in Nazi costumes, IIRC).

In universities there are all sorts of prizes, especially in the arts, and research grants. It's not free. We're actually paying for our children to be indoctrinated through our taxes. Like global warming, nobody gets a grant for being a sceptic. Go figure, as the Yanks say.

I have a copy of Bernard Connolly's (in)famous book "The Rotten Heart of Europe". It's a rare hardback first edition, given to me by a good friend who has now taken US citizenship. It's rare, because the EU tried to suppress it.

Connolly wrote it whilst working as an economist for the European Commission, and it talks about the corruption at the heart of the organisation. He was suspended, sacked and then prosecuted in the European Court for writing it. The prosecutor alleged that attacking the European project was a crime "akin to blasphemy" in the EU. It was a staggering statement for the C21st, and I'm not sure if he wanted Connolly stoned or drawn+quartered, but you get the idea (go Google it!). Unsurprisingly, it wasn't covered much in the British papers (the days of Bliar), but the Torygraph did run something at the time:
Here and Here.
I note with wry amusement that the first report includes Prodi (then EU President) blaming "American Economic Mismanagement" for the problems with the Euro!

The final decision was that preventing criticism of the EU trumps European human rights legisaltion and was akin to treason (they backpedalled on the blasphemy thing).

For me it's not about short term economics. Its about the culture of the state my children and grandchildren will live in. Spilling state secrets is one thing, but suppressing free speech because it implicates corrupt bureaucrats? Don't expect it to end well, when it inevitably does end.

E.

PS: obviously, we should take the red pill.

Grotesque exaggeration verging on hysteria!

The court decided that sacking Connolly was fair enough but he was not prosecuted for writing it.

There is no right to suppress dissent.

You can say what you like about the EU and everybody does (which should be pretty bleedin' obvious!!!)

His book is not rare or suppressed you can buy it on Amazon

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rotten-Heart-E ... 0571301746

It has been freely available since publication - you can even get it in Kindle for 99p

and so on............. :roll:

All the brexit arguments are about fear and paranoia - I've yet to see a calm and sensible one, still less any sensible proposals about how we would improve our lot out of EU

PS I've just bought the Kindle edition - it sounds an interesting read. Or if not, no doubt it'll help me get off to sleep!

 

[lurker]

I was going to mention you can download the book as a PDF so clearly its freely available, I'm surprised the outies don't cite it as evidence of EU financial mismanagement (which I have seen with my own eyes on my frequent visits to Spain).

Jacob,
I know its the torygraph but how do you explain away the second of Eric's links?
Looks like straight reporting to me

 

[Eric The Viking]

I said the first edition was rare. Regarding suppression of free speech, read the court reports and form your own opinion.

I'd also cite the case of Marta Andreason (accountant) in similar vein. She was horrified about the corruption, and similarly pilloried for speaking out about it,

Anyway, the issue is the attitude of the EU prosecutor (supposedly acting on OUR behalf), particularly in the Connolly case.

I don't want to be part of any sort of club that has those "rules", even if they're not rigidly enforced. If we don't hasve open government at all levels we don't have proper democracy.

Nothing either of them said was dangerous to European security, it was merely embarrassing to the governing elite of the EU.

 

[Jacob]

I was going to mention you can download the book as a PDF so clearly its freely available, I'm surprised the outies don't cite it as evidence of EU financial mismanagement (which I have seen with my own eyes on my frequent visits to Spain).

Nothing is perfect - either in or out. It's a process and issues such as mismanagement have to be engaged, in this and all other institutions around the world. But if we are out we are excluded from the process.

Jacob,
I know its the torygraph but how do you explain away the second of Eric's links?
Looks like straight reporting to me

Their heading "Euro-court outlaws criticism of EU" is simply not true. It's the torygraph's wishful-thinking, scaremongering, interpretation.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I was going to mention you can download the book as a PDF so clearly its freely available, I'm surprised the outies don't cite it as evidence of EU financial mismanagement (which I have seen with my own eyes on my frequent visits to Spain).

Jacob,
I know its the torygraph but how do you explain away the second of Eric's links?
Looks like straight reporting to me

It was in the Telegraph (or the Mail) therefore a lie. Quod erat demonstrandum.

 

[bugbear]

unbiased research (compound noun): research which supports my view.

(see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias)

To be clear, both the "IN" and "OUT" campaigns are guilty of this. Politicians and activists generally TBH.

BugBear