extraction help req'd

[neilyweely]

Ok folks, I am afraid there's gonna be a lot of this in the next few weeks as I am moving and setting up my first 'owned' workshop. I have a fair bit of experience in other folks shops, but this is MINE!!

So, first things first, extraction.

I have a Rexon 750watt (induction) extraction unit, rated as giving 276litres of air movement per second (that's what it says). This sounds like a lot, and I understand this may be because it is rated without the sack connected. However, the 'trial' runs were a success, and I am quite impressed. So, what I want to do is hang the unit on the wall, which it has hooks supplied for doing, and rig it up to some 110mm soil pipe running along the top of the garage/workshop. This will be a 10ft length, with blast gates controlling flow to the three outlets; table saw and RAS, and one which will supply extraction to whatever tool I need to use in this spot (thicknesser, planer, router table, etc...) I understand there will be a drop in performance as I extend the pipe, but is this set up possible, and is there a way to improve it's performance?

Folks, I am so skint it is not good, and I can only afford to do this ONCE. So i need to get it right first time. Does anyone have any experience of this sort of set up, or can anyone help me? I do not want to mess this up - I could also just fire a pipe outta the window and send the dust to a pile of sawdust in the corner of the garden. It could be called a compost heap!

Help me folks, don't ignore me 'cos I should know better - I don't!

Thanks all

Neil

PS I have a 17ft x 7ft workshop, and there will be a worktop/bench along one wall, so 17ft long. This will be home to the bench mounted tools (ie planer, thicknesser, pillar drill, morticer etc....) The TS and bandsaw will be free standing. I haven't decided on the layout yet, and will probly put everything on wheels so it can find it's own way round!!! If it's all the same height this should work, yeah?? Any help with layout appreciated too!!!! Cheers all.

 

[Inspector]

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm

The link is to a very large site with enough info to keep you befuddled for quite some time. It's a lot to soak up but it's well worth reading.

One thing about, "I could also just fire a pipe outta the window and send the dust to a pile of sawdust in the corner of the garden." is that, as the dust leaves the shop so does the heat. Nice in the summer but lousy in the winter.

 

[MikeG.]

Neil,

I won't comment on your extraction.....that seems to have been dealt with. But I will make a comment on your proposed workshop layout.

If you have one long bench, and put bench-top machines permanently on it, you won't be able to handle longer lengths of timber (the machines will be in the way). Couldn't you have your workbench on one wall, with storage etc also on that wall, and have your machines along the opposite wall?

Mike

 

[OPJ]

You may have this in mind already but, position your bench so that it runs along one of the longer walls, not the narrower end walls.

If you have wall-space then, put as much stuff as you can (screws. glues, etc.) up and out of the way - this should, hopefully, save you some floor space.

Is this new 'shop insulated at all? It would be a good job to do that first before filling it with machines and tools - if need be, of course.

 

[DaveL]

Neil,

I now have a home made cyclone, but I started of with a 1HP dust collector with a bit of 110mm soil with home made blast gates. It worked will but the problem was the fine dust that came though the cotton filter bad on the top of the dust collector.
To make the most of the suction use 'Y' junctions with a 45 degree bend instead of 'T' junctions. This gives a much better air flow and less of the carried stuff will fall out of the air flow on the corners.
If you search you should find some pictures of the gates I made.
I second the comments about insulating the shop before you fill it up I have a large roll of insulation which should be stapled to the rafters but is still in the shed. :roll: And if you vent outside there is little point in heating the shop when you are using the dust collector. :shock:

 

[neilyweely]

Thanks folks

I was fortunate enough to speak to a very knowledgeable architect fella about insulation, who said that in order to maintain the internal dimensions, and make the most of the space I have, I could insulate the outside of the garage. This is what I would like to do, all things going well.
But OPJ, thanks for the comments, great minds think alike!!! I have a load of 'linbins' ready, full of screws etc.... and ready to go on the wall. As well as a load of shelf brackets. One problem I will have though is that the rafters are solid concrete, and will not allow me to pass timber through into the space above my head, at least not lengthways. But i will find a way to store stuff overhead. A bit of 'lateral thinking' needed here!!

Point taken about the bench though Mike, do you think I would be ok having a bench, maybe a narrow one, on both sides of a 7ft garage/shop?
I will be using a table saw, albeit a smaller model. one of the 300quid axminster jobs, that has a small sliding carriage. I think it will fit, and I could make the benches the same height as the TS, which would not hinder its performance, yes?

And Dave, thanks very much, I will certainly take your advice here. I could use 45' branches no problems, and I will. I wonder if you fancy letting me have a look at your homemade system. If you do then let me know, or PM me. Did your 1hp dust extraction look the same as my rexon thing, and will I get the same problems?

I guess I can use the dust bag in the winter, and fire it into the garden in summer. Does anyone know a way to improve performance of these little wall mounted extractors? And is it a secret? Can I know??

Cheers guys, comments all taken on board, and plans ammended!!

Thanks all

Neil

 

[Digit]

Personal experience only here Neil. To within a foot your shop is the same as mine, mine's 16ft X 7ft.
I have tried various layouts for the machines over a period of the last 7 months, the way I planned it turned out to be less than ideal. (That's Development Engineer Speak for bloody hopeless!)
I think I've got it right now so that I can convert the various ideas I have tried in extraction into a permanent set up.
I have a similar extractor to yours as well so our set ups a very similar.
Firstly I have come to the decision that the extractor is going outside. More space less mess.
Secondly, I dumped the bag! As it ages the air flow gets less and less, and in addition they are sods to empty.
I have been lucky enough to obtain a plastic water butt with a lid that fixes down so that I have been able to fit a plastic soil pipe into it. The extractor will now blow the chips etc into the container and around the inside. Some leakage of dust occurs as it fills as the lid is not tight, but with it being outside it is not a problem.
If it becomes so eventually I will fit a filter and outlet pipe.
I find that the worst offenders are the planer and thicknesser so they are nearest to the extractor with the TS furthest away.

Roy.

 

[wizer]

I think I'm going to have a go at a Cyclone after seeing Dave's. That is if I can stop my brain from exploding whilst perusing billpentz.com :shock: :?

 

[mpooley]

Hi
with that size extractor i agree chuck the waste outside if you can- i used to use a barrel where the chippings collected and the dust just carried on through and it worker quite well.
Dont expect an extractor of that size on a 4INCH pipe to get rid of the harmfull dust though. It just wont happen.

I have a bill pentz cyclone with a 5HP motor plus 6 inch ducting and my shop is still covered in dust when im working BUT its not the very fine stuff that is harmfull - that is definitely getting removed.
You can literally taste/smell the difference in air quality when the blower is on.

I am still experimenting with getting rid of the larger dust particles - it seems to be mainly the design of the hoods that is important but i must admit im still very dissappointed even after spending a fortune.


all the best

Mike :x

 

[Digit]

Sometimes Mike I think the machine design works against us. I had a DeWalt thicknesser and the extraction was pretty good. I did find that with the extraction hose in the centre of the hood it sometimes interfered with the timber passing through though.
I now have a Metabo that extracts from the side, much more convenient but considerably less efficient in extraction.

Roy.

 

[neilyweely]

digit

Thanks for that mate, but tell me, is your actual extractor outside, or just the barrel it fires into? If the extractor is outside how did you house it? Is it under felt, in a little 'extractor house', or is it hardy enough to cope?

Can you let me know how you laid your tools out too, it may save me a lot of trouble?

Thanks buddy

Neil[/b]

 

[Digit]

Outside mate under temp plastic cover TILL THIS SODDING WEATHER DRIES OFF and blows straight into the bin.
As I get the time etc the NVR is coming inside, and as the shop is timber so will the extractor cover be.
Haven't made up my mind yet about a walk in, and perhaps put the compressor out there as well, or just box in the extractor.
What's holding me up at the moment is the ground's to soggy to lay concrete for the base I want to stand the bin/compressor on. Any holes currently become ponds!
As you will understand Neil with a seven ft wide shop pics can be a problem without a close-up lens. Later today I'll try some pics through the doorway and an explanation as to why what is what, but remember this is a layout for me, whether it would be suitable for what you wish to make is upto you of course.
To me a man's workshop is a very personal space, (note to son, Build your own shop!)

Roy.

 

[neilyweely]

Digit

hello mate

A drawing would do, just to let me know the layout of the machines.
I am taking it all under advice, so would be happy for any help.
Digit, thanks for all your help mate.

Neil

PS you may be waiting a long time for the weather to sort itself out though!!!!! UNBELIEVABLE. I have had to put work off for a month now, how bad is that, and it's summer. You know what, I am sure I seen SNOW here earlier today!! Whats all that about??

Cheers then

 

[Digit]

Have you found those locks yet?

Yep! Hot irons didn't work so I had to wait till he was found playing with them. Ah the joys of being a granddad!
Can't manage the drawing as I don't have the necessary gear I'm afraid.
I've just got back from a cancer support meeting and, guess what, it's raining! So I'll have a crack at the outside pics later as the sun looks as though it's gonna break through.
I wasn't sure how my plans would work out, and as I intended putting the collection outside, I tested everything with a lash up that meant putting the bin at the door and moving the machines around to simulate the final layout.
Having only recently completed the shop I didn't fancy cutting holes in the wall for the pipe work and electrics then having to change my mind.
The final lash up was the MK111 and the machines are now in their intended positions and everything dismantled till I get the concrete pad down.
I'll get back to you later.

Roy,

 

[neilyweely]

digit

PM sent

Neil

 

[Digit]

This is the bin I'm using Neil, there's another plastic bend inside to swirl the dust extrated rather than blast straight into the existing debris. There's a one inch approx hole in the lid which I may have to fit a filter to later.

Not a good image I'm afraid but the extractor will be on the outside of the far wall, so nearest to it is the thicknesser, then the planer, then the TS which is just inside the door.
Hope this is of some help.

Roy.

 

[Digit]

No PM yet Neil.

Roy.

 

[ivan]

One bag extractors (usally 1 to 1.5 hp) are really designed to be mobile and connect to one machine by a short length of flexible hose. True, soil pipe has less resistance to flow, but you'll probablty need the same bit of flex hose to connect the machine to the ducting. Thus your air flow will be reduced to about half; bear in mind 1hp is barely adequate with no ducting! If you insist on doing it put the dirtiest machine nearest the extractor. A cyclone (including a bin lid type) introduces a lot of flow resistance. Better try to increase the filter area by fitting a pleated filter. Look for stuff on here posted by Barry re his cyclone - he started with just pleated filters.