external doors with loose tenons?

[SlowSteve]

Hello.

I posted a post here regarding making large doors and now I seem to be going down the rabbit hole on door making. Now I have a question about big external doors - fancy front doors or garage doors - this looks like it will be the summer jobs.

The mortice and tenon-ing of big (1.5"" x 6") external doors looks a bit tricky - I can handle the tenons but the big square mortices I can't see a route to do - I don't have a morticer and I don't trust my chisel work on such big deep mortices to still keep accuracy.

I was wondering about that people thought about using loose tenons? The idea would be to do something like a 65mm deep router mortice and then put in loose tenons, and then dowel through the tenons to pin them as well as glue them?

I think this might be OK for the middle and bottom joints, but the top joint seems to have a critical shoulder in it, and I can't see a way of doing that.

Any idea's would be consumed with deep interest.

Steve

 

[deema]

I may have misunderstood, but 6" by 1 1/2" tennons are both an unusual size and also more likely to me made as either two tennons side by side, or even two banks of tennons I.e 4 in total. Could you perhaps define the approximate dimensions of the stuff your proposing to join together.

 

[James-1986]

Ideally, you want a through wedged tenon for large front doors or garage doors.

If you can do a 65mm deep mortice and have no problems with tenons, then do a stopped tenon. you can also draw bore the joints. I should think that will be superior to a loose tenon.

If it is a summer job perhaps keep a look out for a morticer in the mean time? £750 will buy you a decent singe phase machine second hand.

 

[dzj]

Why not route the mortice from both sides and chisel out anything remaining in between? That way you can have a proper wedged tenon.
I personally never use loose tenon joinery on doors. If it's for a cabinet side or wainscoting or anything that doesn't move LTs are OK, but
doors need all the help they can get.

 

[SlowSteve]

I may have misunderstood, but 6" by 1 1/2" tennons are both an unusual size and also more likely to me made as either two tennons side by side, or even two banks of tennons I.e 4 in total. Could you perhaps define the approximate dimensions of the stuff your proposing to join together.

Ah ha - sorry.

I am thinking that the doors need to be 6 x 1.5" in thickness.

 

[cornishjoinery]

Are you in the trade? If so, you should know how to cut large mortice and tenons. If you cant them, you shouldn't be in the trade.

 

[mikefab]

Are you in the trade? If so, you should know how to cut large mortice and tenons. If you cant them, you shouldn't be in the trade.

That's a particularly unhelpful response. I can see from your other recent post that you'd like a professionals-only forum, but surely there is no need to shoot down people asking questions which seem basic to you.

 

[PAC1]

If you can route a hole 65mm deep then cut a hole from both sides. You then have 20mm in the middle to chop out with a chisel. You can then square up the corners and allow. For the wedges. If I used my Morticer I would cut the mortice from both sides.

 

[cornishjoinery]

I was just commenting, it sounded like he was in the trade , which if he is then he has to do it properly but if he is just doing hobby stuff fair play will give him all the advise he needs x

 

[AJB Temple]

I would definitely not use loose tenons in large or heavy doors. The key to through mortices is very accurate marking out and making sure that you don't wander off vertical when cutting. Since you will only have a few M&Ts to do, you can take it slowly. I can't remember from your previous thread what equipment you have, but assuming you do not have a morticing machine if you are cutting a through slot in 6" timber, then in your shoes I would start with planed and square all round, mark out both faces, taking measurements from the same face side and then drill (ideally in a drill press if you have got one) half depth from each side. Practice on a piece of scrap of similar size first. Drill under sized to leave waste all round and then clean up carefully with a sharp chisel. Does not have to be a mortice chisel. Keep entry and exit points absolutely clean and square.

To cut large tensions accurately and dead square, you may well find it easiest to use a router. If you clamp a fence (piece of straight timber for example)in place, making sure it is dead on square, you will be able to do this very accurately and repeatably to consistent depth and with a dead straight and square shoulder. I would do several tenons at the same time this way, using sash cramps or bench dogs or whatever you have, to hold two or three boards in place for cutting at the same time. You can also do tenons on a table saw if you have one. Or hand saw them. Or use a circular saw on a jig similar to a router (not my favourite method!). But it just depends what gear you have got. Most people seem to have a router though.

I would cut wedge slots in the tenons (two is enough) and most importantly drill an anti split hole at each of of the slots in the tenons. Make everything a push fit - not a hammer fit.

Once you have practised a bit and done one in scrap, it will be a breeze. Good luck. Adrian

 

[JonnyW]

I was just commenting, it sounded like he was in the trade , which if he is then he has to do it properly but if he is just doing hobby stuff fair play will give him all the advise he needs x

From what I've experienced and read on this fantastic forum, is that it is as much for folk in the trade to ask questions - regardless of how silly or elementary they may seem to other forum users - and expect as much help as the DIY'rs and less experienced.

I've seen many guys that are 'in the trade' that shouldn't be, and many DIY'rs and novices who are not 'in the trade', that should be!

Jonny

 

[SlowSteve]

Gents,

Sorry for the delay in response - many thanks for the comments.

To cover some of the questions

CornishJoinery
- I'm not in the trade. I am an IT nerd by day and a recovering metal bashing hobbist who is getting more used to the splintery brown stuff by night who is now in a ruin of a house which needs many weeks and months of carpentry and joinery doing so doing more and more of it. The upside is that this is an excuse to buy new tools!

While I am still very much a learner in the woodworking hobby, I am comfortable enough with cutting mortice and tenons, either by hand or with power tools - in smaller stock - my question was really asked because I couldn't see a route to handing really deep stock and actually keep it accurate - thats the sort of thing that happens after years of practise I think.

AJB Temple and DZJ
Many thanks for the similar thoughts - I think I will take this approach. I very much want to do a through-tenon route if I can, I just couldn't see a route to it. Unless you think it's a bad idea, I am thinking, based on what you have said, that if I route out the miters on each side, and then drill out the majority of the remaining 20mm waste, and then chisel through to clean up, that might be the least risky route?

AJB: Tools at hand at the moment are Tablesaw, Router, plenty of hand tools and plenty of jigs for the saw and router. I am going to start building a 16" bandsaw at the weekend - a Mathias Wendel special http://woodgears.ca/bandsaw/homemade.html although this will take much of the winter I think.

After that, the next "tinkering" project will be a jointer http://woodgears.ca/jointer/homemade.html but I doubt I will have that ready before I need to do the doors in the spring, so will "joint" with the router in a sled and then use the hand plane to tidy up. (I *hate* hand planing......)

AJB: When you talk about the fox-wedges being "push fit, not hammer fit" I have got a bit confused. I had understood that the idea of the fox wedges was to make skinny wedges in a hard material ( I practised last night making 8 degree wedges in oak ) and then battering them in to drive the tenon as hard as you can into the mortice walls. However - I got this from Youtube and so that may be utter rubbish.

What *should* I be doing please - as being fair - I trust the average comment on this forum more than the average Youtube video.

The

 

[RobinBHM]

External doors are often made from ex 2 1/2" timber these days and finish 56mm or 58mm thick. This is to allow for double glazing of 24mm.

Typically stiles may be 100 x 58mm, top rail 100 x 58mm, bottom rail 170 up to 250wide, mid rails similar.

Depending on locks stiles may need to be 110 wide.

set out: make stiles say 100mm over length for horns 50mm at top and bottom. Generally a haunch of 50mm is used at bottom, same or a bit less at top.

If you're doors are rebated to take glass or panels, then usually the tenon will be in the rebate so remember to allow for that when marking out mortices.

Always mark out a face side and work off that face for squaring round pencil marks and that face will go to the fence for drilling or routing.

Saw wedge slots in the tenons -cuts need to be 3 or 4 mm wide. To allow room for the wedges to go in it is easy to simply make the mortices a bit longer and tapered towards the outside edges of the stiles. That way when you bang the wedges in there is space for the tenon to widen.

 

[AJB Temple]

Hi - I meant make the tenons a push fit in the mortice slots. Not the wedges in the slots. It is totally fine to start cutting the mortices with the router and this is a good solution. Done it many times myself. Drilling through then has no risk and you can clean up with a chisel. Obviously you don't have to chisel the corners square if you don't want to - you could round off the tenons instead. However, I think it looks better if they are square. I also like to use contrasting timber for the wedges very often as it shows the work involved! Sounds like you are well on your way. Good luck making the band saw - a challenging project indeed. Adrian