External door warped - who is liable?

[cowtown_eric]

Most door suppliers here in the colonies will not warrent a door from warpage unless it is finished on ALL surfaces, including top and bottom, so take an inspection mirror and check top and bottom for finish.

I have had many discussions with painters and finishers about this. Most say it is not done(just beacause-as far as I think), but they don't know/care or ain't gonna pick up the warranty costs and it makes their work so much easier

Advise checking that with commercial door suppliers, and check top/bottom of door. Maybe you win/maybe you lose, but it don't take but a few minutes ith an inspection mirror.

Many years ago I asked a door MFGR why exterior doors were so expensive....and the answer was warrenty-South facing doors can approach 200F, particularly if there's a storm door, while inside temps in an A/C house could be 100 degrees lower and have substantially lower moisture levels. What wood ain't gonna respomd to that somehow???

It really only takes a few minutes to apply finish top and bottom. Not saying that that will fix the problem, but if it wasn't finished, you could at least point a "half"a finger to the finisher, maybe bolstered by a discussion with an exterior door supplier

Good Luck

Eric in the colonies

 

[planesleuth]

Completely agree with this. All doors must be coated top and bottom. Nearly all never are. Also I wood investigate the quality of the timber from the supplier. Many failures, in my time, have been down to re-active timber.

 

[Blackswanwood]

Sorry to be pedantic but I think this thread could be in danger of being misleading.

I am not a lawyer but do have many years experience of dealing with product liability claims and over the last three years consumer disputes.

It is not the case that a general twelve month guarantee is provided by law. The Consumer Rights Act says that the goods should be durable and of reasonable quality. In many case as a consumer you therefore have a right to have something replaced or put right way beyond or lose the right way before twelve months have expired.

 

[Jones]

It seems that you will have to do something to keep the client happy. Though you blame on going building works a screed is laid as dry as possible to avoid shrinkage and would generally be considered dry enough to lay flooring after a couple of months. Autumn is also a normal time for doors to move when it gets wetter, my workshop door can get a bit sticky now.I think you will have to sort it , in future warn clients of potential movement and price in a callback because often you will need it. In very exposed situations I recommend composite doors .

 

[Misterdog]

Some manufacturers will not give a warranty on exterior doors unless there is a porch to protect them from rain.

 

[murphy]

I have just been reading about (Does Accoya not move) and it is interesting, I never heard about this process before, my dream come true, why is all wood not pickled then, ( apart from price) or at least people given the option to choose pickled or unpickled?

 

[Jones]

I have just been reading about (Does Accoya not move) and it is interesting, I never heard about this process before, my dream come true, why is all wood not pickled then, ( apart from price) or at least people given the option to choose pickled or unpickled?

I don't think many species can be pickled it must need a very absorbent wood to penetrate into. The species I have seen is radiata pine ,a long leaved fast growing tree grown in southern Europe and southern hemisphere. It looks like a really cheap soft pine and bits I have seen have blue stain probably from the process, though that was a few years ago and it might look better now. Either way it's often painted. Another consideration is price I haven't asked for a while but it used to be similar to teak .

 

[scholar]

I would have thought that, if the movement was due to the differential moisture level on the inside face as a result of the screed drying out, then this would self-correct in due course?

Does accoya not move ?

One example I have is some big 2m x 1.5m garage doors that (for reasons too complicated to explain) have stood unpainted awaiting fitting for years in a damp garage - I don’t think they have moved a millimetre.

Cheers

 

[Trextr7monkey]

Thanks, that's helpful! I think the point I was trying to make is that perhaps it becomes difficult to justify a guarantee on products when the context in which the product sits (in this case a house with a new screed floor) is evolving, and might involve extreme changes in temperature / humidity that are really beyond our control. I mean, what if the customer decided to put a radiator in front of the door for a week and the door warped? Would we still be responsible then? (Genuine question)

Hi Marek
We lived in a newly built ex show house when first married. It had more time to dry out than other houses on the estate before occupation. A hardwood sapele front door was changed 3 times in just over 2 years - site manager and joiner reckoned it would continue to happen ans said there should have been some sheltering canopy or similar to protect door from extremes. We never explored this option as we moved but perhaps that could be a more palatable solution to build a new protective feature than to go back over the original door

 

[Spectric]

One of the hardest aspects of wood to get to grips with, you make it to one size or shape and it decides to become something else, now wonder clamps are so popular and essential in woodworking. At least with metal if you make something it remains that size and shape, and even distortion during welding can be controlled so I can why so many like MDF and man made material.

The way to think about your door issue with the client is who gets the bigger paypacket, a woodworker or a lawyer!

 

[plum60]

Hello there,

I have recently made and fitted a gothic-headed hardwood door and frame. They were fitted nicely (so far as I can remember), but now, six months later, the door has warped quite considerably (approx 5/8" across the full height), and the client is angry as hell.

Usually I would say this is down to bad luck and the fact it's a wooden door, and do my best to make it work for the client, either by replacing the door, or by putting the door under various kinds of pressure in the shop. However in this particular instance I think there is quite a strong case to say that the client is to blame, for one main reason: they insisted that the door frames and doors needed to be fitted *just* before a screed floor was laid across the entire ground floor (>100m2), so that the screed could run up to the bottom of the frames. I wonder whether the excess humidity in the screed floor could have contributed to warping the door.

Has anyone else has come across this problem? And if so, do you have any advice (legal or otherwise) on who might be liable in this instance? Would be really great to hear your thoughts.

Many thanks in advance!

Screed is a liquid that has to dry out/cure isn't it. If so it is possible they laid it very close to the bottom of the door which may have not been coated in some small area allowing moisture up into the wood. Maybe research screed and see if any ingredient can affect other materials etc. I also wondered if the timber of the frame was as dry as it should have been along with the door timber itself. You are likely to lose either way here though I think, if you fight and they are already angry you might end up going legal or you could offer to refund the entire cost and see what they say. The other option is to make another door but as you do not know what caused the problem you run a risk of it repeating. Maybe get some quotes for someone else to make the door for you and fit it yourself to shift liability. I feel for you here. Consumer legislation goes against any maker... which is why a lot of business went abroad in the first place. Lawyers insurance and ministers all play golf together they all scratch each-others backs.

 

[Adam W.]

Screed is a liquid that has to dry out/cure isn't it. If so it is possible they laid it very close to the bottom of the door which may have not been coated in some small area allowing moisture up into the wood. Maybe research screed and see if any ingredient can affect other materials etc. I also wondered if the timber of the frame was as dry as it should have been along with the door timber itself. You are likely to lose either way here though I think, if you fight and they are already angry you might end up going legal or you could offer to refund the entire cost and see what they say. The other option is to make another door but as you do not know what caused the problem you run a risk of it repeating. Maybe get some quotes for someone else to make the door for you and fit it yourself to shift liability. I feel for you here. Consumer legislation goes against any maker... which is why a lot of business went abroad in the first place. Lawyers insurance and ministers all play golf together they all scratch each-others backs.

No, screed is not a liquid, but a stiff cement/sand mix with a minimal moisture content.

 

[Blackswanwood]

No, screed is not a liquid, but a stiff cement/sand mix with a minimal moisture content.

Not sure that is always the case ...

 

[deema]

I’ve been interested in the responses, may I ask, are you sure it’s moved 5/8” or 16mm? I’m assuming it’s hung in 3 or 4 proper hinges. Movement of up to 1/4” or 6mm is annoying but is siimptomatic of wooden doors, but 5/8” if it is sounds like poor wood selection, sorry.

 

[Jacob]

Depends on the details but it can be possible to lose 16mm gap with a bit of fiddling and re-finishing. But I'd wait until late spring at least, so that you know it has settled down.
In the meantime fit a temporary draught strip of some sort?

Where is the gap exactly?

If you can't adjust it in situ the basic procedure is to rehang the door. Take it off, take off all hardware, then offer it up to the opening to see where timber needs removing. Ideally done from the rebate as will be less noticeable but maybe take a bit off the face too. When it's a good fit then re-fit hardware (some will not go back to where it was) and re-hang.
A days work?
PS and/or the possibility of adding a bit to the rebate in the form of a long triangular fillet to close a gap.

 

[Adam W.]

Not sure that is always the case ...

View attachment 122580

That looks like a plaster (calcium sulphate) screed. Ugh!

Did they do that?

 

[Blackswanwood]

That looks like a plaster (calcium sulphate) screed. Ugh!

Did they do that?

I don't know what the OP's client used but liquid floor screed (as in the picture) is composed of cement, water and aggregates with a limestone binder. It is quite commonly used.

 

[Adam W.]

That's another newish wonder product then. When I left the UK construction industry 15 years ago, these things were relatively unknown and screed was always dry.

A quick google says you can have both cement and gypsum based screed.

 

[doctor Bob]

Most new build floors are a pumped scree these days takes forever to dry out.

 

[Adam W.]

If that's normal practice now, then I would say the guy who made the door and installed it is liable for the remedials.

I guess that's another nail in the coffin of traditional carpentry and joinery.

I'm glad I work in traditional repair and not new build.