Exterior Door Advice please

[Jacob]

Thanks for your comments Jacob. Presumably then you'd secret nail the matchboarding to the bottom rail? I ask this because without any bracing, which the boards would ordinarily nail to, the only thing holding the boards would be the bottom rail. I was only using the ply to fix the boards to, as one would to any ledges and braces and to stop the shutting stile dropping. I guess I could stop it dropping by using one lower diagonal brace gunstock jointed into the stile. That should work, and I could nail the boards to this brace as well. You reckon this is a good alternative then?

You need a middle rail too. It's a "framed and boarded" door - not "ledge braced and battened".

 

[dzj]

If you choose to go with your initial frame and single panel design, a multipoint lock might be a good idea.

 

[Mannyroad]

Guys, what I seem to be getting here is that everyone would recommend sticking with the traditional framed, ledged, braced and battened configuration. Fair enough, and I would have gone down this route from the start but for wanting it double boarded which I figured would make the mid-rail and bracing too thin (at 12mm thick). If you think one 12mm thick diagonal brace and mid-rail will give me a door that is sufficiently robust to avoid movement issues then great.

To be clear, you're all recommend doing it this way then:

 

[Jacob]

Guys, what I seem to be getting here is that everyone would recommend sticking with the traditional framed, ledged, braced and battened configuration. Fair enough, and I would have gone down this route from the start but for wanting it double boarded which I figured would make the mid-rail and bracing too thin (at 12mm thick). If you think one 12mm thick diagonal brace and mid-rail will give me a door that is sufficiently robust to avoid movement issues then great.

To be clear, you're all recommend doing it this way then:

Nope.
You don't need a brace on a framed door with a middle rail and the horizontals are rails not ledges i.e. they are M&Td into the stiles.
The middle and bottom rails would be the thickness of the door (commonly 44 mm) less the thickness of the boards (say 18mm) = 26mm. The M&Ts flush with the face of these rails.
That gives you the door.
How you fit the second boards inside is another matter - they could be set in between the rails and perhaps held with a bead around the edges, or fitted to cover the whole door (making it thicker) or various options in between.

What you really need to do is have a close look at a few doors to get the idea, or you are trying to re invent the wheel.

 

[Mannyroad]

Thanks for your comments Jacob, but I know how to make the type of door you are suggesting. However, that type of door won't accommodate the battens to both sides, all within 45mm (which I'm stuck with) and avoid having to have an exposed mid-rail or brace etc.

So yes, the whole point of this thread was HOW best to re-invent the wheel so as to have NO mid-rail OR braces exposed on EITHER side, for a door of 45mm thickness. I originally set out using the ideas shown in Brian Porter & Christopher Tooke's book Carpentry & Joinery, where they show two versions of achieving a 'double matchboarding' look to a door, but their options were intended for matchboarding a panel below a mid-rail (see below):

Because I want to board a full door height with NO MID-RAIL SHOWING I thought I would need something like the ply core to help brace the door. It seems though that this isn't a good idea, so, how can I make a stable (not horse stable) door which has full height uninterrupted battens both sides of the door, for a 45 thick door?

 

[John15]

Could you increase the t & g to 22.5mm?

John

 

[Mannyroad]

Could you increase the t & g to 22.5mm?

John

Hi John, yes I could, though I'm not sure how that improves things. Why do you suggest that rather than just having 45mm thick battens?

 

[dzj]

If you epoxy the marine ply to a groove inside the rails and stiles, it would become a structural element and you could do away with any additional rails.
I've done this many times on cabinet doors, but never on a door this size.
It probably would be OK. We just need someone to try it out.

 

[Jacob]

Yes give it a go! But the difference is in the external environment. Personally I think it will be something of a sponge and will self destruct.

 

[Fat ferret]

Why no brace jacob?

 

[Jacob]

Why no brace jacob?

If it's framed with a wide stile and a widish bottom rail there is enough bracing in the M&Ts. Just very conventional door construction. If you made it with smaller rails you might then need braces. If you made it with no stiles you'd have a ledged and battened door which would usually have braces too, but can be found without - usually internal doors not subject to vagaries of the weather.

 

[Fat ferret]

Well we will agree to disagree on this one. Ok you have glued your m and t's and it's all good and strong but I like a brace incase the tenons shrink or glue fails with repeated slamings, not likely but how much trouble is it to use a brace too? A brace looks good to me and the op could include one easily enough.

 

[RobinBHM]

Could you add some battens around the door frame and make the door thicker? Done carefully it isn't noticeable when finished and you then have the option to make the door out of ex 2 1/2" stock so finishing at 54mm or 58mm. It can be a lot less hassle than trying to over complicate a door construction and/or compromising it's construction. The boarding and middle rails will have to be made from 1" stock minimum anyway.

I do this sometimes when making a door with double glazing in order to get a 24mm unit thickness. Although in most cases it is easier to make a new door set fully factory hung, sometimes it just is not possible to get the frame out if it is buried in the masonry or part of a larger frame with sidelights or a fanlight.

 

[billybuntus]

Could you not use Medite Tricoya maybe made up of three laminations x2 12mm for face and back and 18mm core?

Then route a V groove for your panels and paint... Oh wait you want a timber look?

 

[Jacob]

Could you not use Medite Tricoya maybe made up of three laminations x2 12mm for face and back and 18mm core?

Then route a V groove for your panels and paint... Oh wait you want a timber look?

:lol: Yes if you want to fake an old door you might as well fake it 100%.
Medite Tricoya (whatever that is - I had to look it up) is guaranteed for 50 years!

 

[Mannyroad]

Jacob, I tend to agree with your comments regarding the wide stiles/ deep bottom rail & through M&T's, which is why I went down the beefed up route because I couldn't see another way of stiffening the door, given it must remain 45 thick. I'm not trying to fake anything at all, I merely don't like to see the rails and braces on the inside. I already have that type of door, though knackered, and I hate it. If only I could have used a fake (engineered) door I'd be laughing.

I also see Fat Ferrets point re the potential for the tenons/glue to loosen/shrink, so I'm still not sure what my best option is.

I had rather hoped that the wealth of experience and knowledge on this forum would have quickly agreed on a good working solution to my design problem for building a 45mm thick external door with battens both sides with no exposed mid-rails or braces. I honestly didn't think it was going to be so difficult to reach a working solution that everyone supported. I did ask a joiner friend of mine for his solution and he just gave me a blank look. Come on guys, put your thinking caps on, and agree on a way forward, pleeeeease. :|

 

[MickCheese]

Maybe the fact that a general consensus cannot easily be agreed upon suggest the task is not as easy as it sounds or that the design is one that should be avoided.

There is often a good reason all things tend to be made in a certain way and that is that errors over time improve design.

I'm no joiner, in fact I have never made a door in my life, but just a thought.

Mick

 

[Jacob]

.....I couldn't see another way of stiffening the door, given it must remain 45 thick. I'm not trying to fake anything at all, ....|

It's faking.
I suggest the only way to do it is to have some sort of metal work hidden within. Or if you don't want to fake it increase the thickness by adding matchboards to the inside of a conventional door - braces and all, to hold the extra weight.
Metal - perhaps a diagonal brace supporting the top rail making the structure basically into a gallows bracket, with everything else hanging off it.

 

[Fat ferret]

Make a traditional frame door, t and g rebated into frame on outside, brace on bottom half ect then t and g over the inside. Easy.

 

[ColeyS1]

I've made loads of doors using the way I described and never had any problems don't overthink it. Do what you think will work and I'm sure it will be your last drawing looks o.k. I'd have kept the bottom rail full width though :lol: