Experience, efficiency and enjoyment.

[Jacob]

2 1/2 gross is 2.5 x 250 pieces = 625 pieces

3960/625 = 6.3 minutes per piece. :shock:

From the topic title, I think this example shows Experience and Efficiency. Not so much Enjoyment!

BugBear

I wouldn't disagree, did enjoyment enter into the picture for any working class career ? .....

It can do - it depends on the company. I've done some cr&p working class jobs and when things are going well and everybody is getting on nicely it can be OK.
I've never done them for long though - 6 months driving a wagon in a quarry about the longest - tea breaks in our little hut were hilarious and we all were mates.
A lot of work wouldn't be possible without these "fringe benefits".
On the woodwork front read "The Wheelwrights Shop" for a picture of working class life in the bad old days.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

Oops sorry, I did mean to refer to the period of the professional bodger - they died out about 1950 I think.

 

[D_W]

Hat tip to Graham Haydon, who posted these links some time ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Bhu7HjIGAk

A reminder of what very fine furniture making looked like in its heyday.

If that doesn't inspire, I don't know what will. 240 years later, and the small pocket drawers still descend on a cushion of air...slowly. The carving is beyond delightful.

 

[D_W]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qSni6RkibEY

Charlie...you think this guy might be in the weeds a liitle?

 

[AndyT]

On the subject of enjoyment, the same book that the numbers were in has a quote from a bodger, named as George Dean, from a 1955 letter archived in the High Wycombe public library.

"Life in the woods was strangely enjoyable... carefree, and a bit lonesome if your mate was away. In the spring it was lovely, as the trees took on their fresh green leaf and in the winter the sighing of the wind and the sight of the birds gathering in the branches when the smoke ascended at meal times."

It should come as no surprise that there's a bit of a revival of woodland based work among some new-age types - who are consciously choosing a low-impact, low cash lifestyle where they can follow their own values.

 

[Jacob]

On the subject of enjoyment, the same book that the numbers were in has a quote from a bodger, named as George Dean, from a 1955 letter archived in the High Wycombe public library.

"Life in the woods was strangely enjoyable... carefree, and a bit lonesome if your mate was away. In the spring it was lovely, as the trees took on their fresh green leaf and in the winter the sighing of the wind and the sight of the birds gathering in the branches when the smoke ascended at meal times."

It should come as no surprise that there's a bit of a revival of woodland based work among some new-age types - who are consciously choosing a low-impact, low cash lifestyle where they can follow their own values.

No revival - there's been a back-to-the-simple-life tendency going on for generations, nothing new-age about it.
Hunting shooting fishing climbing camping sailing kayaking DIY craft-work gardening bee-keeping - endless list!
Walden was published in 1854. Morris and Arts n Crafts getting going around the same time

 

[Tasky]

I guess I wasn't clear enough. I'm not advocating using junk wood, and I don't like the idea of practice projects.

ANY wood will still cost me a month of 'disposable' income. Just the wood for my bench was nearly 1½ months' money.
I have done a few projects where the recipients didn't mind if it was a little ricketty, but that also allowed me to try out techniques, joints and things. That's my general concept of practice projects, but I did also test a few things out first on scrap before using the better quality wood bought for the purpose.

A mistake for me is usually another month of wating and a not-insignificant amount of money potentially wasted, if it can't go into a Set Aside pile. More so since everything I make is a gift for someone, rather than an income. I have a 'real' job for that.

Of course, I made mistakes when working, but few were unrecoverable. Working mostly by hand, you have a few chances to think about what you're doing, even if you're tired.

Due to some physical limitation, I already have to think carefully before I even start and I can't really afford mistakes, so a slower and more deliberate consideration toward all aspects is essential... and being tired just means I miss something.
Speed is secondary to me - Better to arrive late than not at all.

To reference the OP title - My enjoyment is in achieving the desired result, my efficiency is in minimal outlay and minimal wastage, my experience here is still devleoping but mostly underpinned by experiences in other ventures.

 

[AndyT]

Here's a bit more about chair making productivity, from Ivan Sparkes writing in the journal of the Regional Furniture Society:

https://regionalfurnituresociety.files. ... parkes.pdf

- it includes a figure of adzing two dozen chair seats between start of work at 6.30 and breakfast (9.30) and the employment of children to cut wedges at the rate of a penny per gross, which was an hour's work.

 

[D_W]

So, lurching back on topic, people might like to look at this blog post by Stephen Shepherd. It's not the calculations back from the price books I was looking for, but it's from a thoughtful woodworker interested in rediscovering the old ways.

http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=191

I think his most interesting point is near the end and I don't think it's been made yet (though I admit to not reading every word of the last few pages).

He says that old makers were efficient because they made only a small range of very standard products, over and over again. So there was no need to spend any time agonising over details of construction or dimensions. All those questions had preset answers.

As simple and familiar to them as it is for me to stand in our kitchen and make a cup of coffee, like I do every day, with the same things from the same places.

I know that in the projects I write up on here, I can spend hours just thinking and reviewing options or choosing pieces of wood. To some extent it's enjoyable to exercise my mind solving problems but it certainly isn't efficient.

And just for fun, here are two of my favourite video examples of someone making a standard product for the umpteenth time, with no effort wasted, no tool put down just to be picked up again.

The first is the well known old Swedish archive film of the rural chairmakers. They have a fixed pattern to lay out the joints and judging by the closing shot of the loaded cart, made just one style of chair. (Go to 8:40 for the chair.)

https://youtu.be/wGDkliy1DEU

The second is from Frank Klaus, cutting dovetails with no superfluous marking out, tools or processes.

https://youtu.be/vKuy3NdLhlE

This was my point earlier about making something a bunch of times potentially being more satisfying than going through the agonizing process you're talking about reviewing options, etc.

I don't mind analyzing something like that if I am going to do it a few times. To do it once on each piece and then never make anything notable or well (which is what most amatuers do)...no thanks. Not saying that someone who is "hobbying" can't enjoy doing nothing, I just think they'd enjoy doing something that they're interested in relatively well a whole lot better.

And a lot of those things (for folks fretting about material costs) can yield enough income to cover the cost of the hobby.

 

[D_W]

I guess I wasn't clear enough. I'm not advocating using junk wood, and I don't like the idea of practice projects.

ANY wood will still cost me a month of 'disposable' income. Just the wood for my bench was nearly 1½ months' money.
I have done a few projects where the recipients didn't mind if it was a little ricketty, but that also allowed me to try out techniques, joints and things. That's my general concept of practice projects, but I did also test a few things out first on scrap before using the better quality wood bought for the purpose.

A mistake for me is usually another month of wating and a not-insignificant amount of money potentially wasted, if it can't go into a Set Aside pile. More so since everything I make is a gift for someone, rather than an income. I have a 'real' job for that.

Of course, I made mistakes when working, but few were unrecoverable. Working mostly by hand, you have a few chances to think about what you're doing, even if you're tired.

Due to some physical limitation, I already have to think carefully before I even start and I can't really afford mistakes, so a slower and more deliberate consideration toward all aspects is essential... and being tired just means I miss something.
Speed is secondary to me - Better to arrive late than not at all.

To reference the OP title - My enjoyment is in achieving the desired result, my efficiency is in minimal outlay and minimal wastage, my experience here is still devleoping but mostly underpinned by experiences in other ventures.

You're still making things more difficult than they need to be. Eventually, you're going to do or make something. It will involve materials. Learning to do it better is not going to waste them. Even if you make an error on a mortise or plane a stroke of tearout. We're not talking about setting up a shop made of rube goldberg machines and testing all of them on pallets full of the finest densest timber from indonesia. We're talking about things like changing the direction you point the chisel when you strike it in a mortise.

If money and materials are that important, I guarantee you that you possess the skills to make small things that will return more money than you're spending. For example, you could set up an etsy page and recover any of the thousands of old razor strops (at boot sales) that are a couple of bucks and in good enough shape to make a tool strop, but not good enough for razors. Pull the linens off of them and sell them as genuine linens for $20-$40 if they are clean (if they're not, just throw them away), split the leather in two length-wise and sand the surface off and glue it (well and tidy) to a piece of wood and sell each of those for $20. it's not going to yield you $50 an hour, but I guarantee it would make money. There are hundreds of little nits like that that could alleviate the fear that you just can't do much because of the chance of failure of financial ruin.

None of them are large enough to make a living doing, but they certainly could allow for building of skill and alleviation of financial hobby strain.

I have a large stack of shell strops that aren't in good enough shape to be returned to razoring. They cost me about $5-$10 each (I've already recovered the cost of them by selling the good strops for below market price for a good strop). I'll split one with a good linen and see how long it takes to sell it and see what the proceeds are. This is sort of a waste of my time, but I'll do it to prove a point, and I'll record the time involved.

There are just scads of other ideas that you could try, like putting an ad for clean unfinished shorts for free out on craigslist (or whatever the equivalent is there), etc. Eventually, you're going to run into someone whose economics make it so that they'd be glad to let you take their offcuts for nothing, because they're going to just throw them away, anyway. You may run into someone who is just looking to dump good stock at a very low rate. But I guarantee if you do nothing, you won't find them.

My mother has made about $25k per year for the last 35 years as a side hustle using only salvage materials (her market is people who want something painted on them - horrific to me, but it keeps her busy and returns about 20 bucks an hour now that she's good at it. It would be her hobby, anyway). Her network is so large (of people who know that she wants stuff like offcuts, discarded tinware and old cookware, etc) that she now has a different problem - the materials come faster than she can turn them around.

 

[Tasky]

To do it once on each piece and then never make anything notable or well (which is what most amatuers do)...no thanks. Not saying that someone who is "hobbying" can't enjoy doing nothing, I just think they'd enjoy doing something that they're interested in relatively well a whole lot better.

So how many side tables do I need to make before I can make just the one that the Wife asked for?
That's why most amateurs and hobbyists do it only the once - Because once in a blue moon is all some things are needed. If the need to do it better becomes a factor, they'll end up doing it more often and getting better at it anyway.

And a lot of those things (for folks fretting about material costs) can yield enough income to cover the cost of the hobby.

Depends on the individual goals - I'm in this to make specific things for specific people, not build a portfolio of stuff that might be of purchasable interest to other people.

If money and materials are that important, I guarantee you that you possess the skills to make small things that will return more money than you're spending.

Between actual work, family and all the other things, let's assume I have the time and money to make ONE hour's worth of work per day.
I can then make lots of little things and thus lots of little monies in a month... or I can make the one thing I want to make. I cannot do both, and if I could this would be my career not my hobby.

Works for some people, I'm sure. Not for everyone, though.
If I had as much time free at home as I spend waiting on other people at work, I could probably build you a wooden palace!!

 

[D_W]

Now you're back to having the materials and time to do one hour of work per day. You've got plenty of time and materials to try new things and take some calculated risks.

Years ago, the spouse of the person who got me into woodworking asked if I wanted to finish some professional exams that I was taking. They took a while, and at the same time, I tried to take on additional responsibilities at work (because that's what work wanted me to do), and she asked if I wanted to finish the exams, which were dragging out.

I said "yes". And she said "no, you don't. If you wanted to finish the exams, you'd do it." To which I responded that my additional work responsibilities and sometimes weekend work (and sometimes weeks in the office until midnight at inopportune times) were making it difficult, but I wanted to. She was right. I didn't really want to at the time. I left the job and finished the exams elsewhere.

If you're actually able to come up with an hour a day in the shop (even if that is just an average over a week), you'll have more furniture than you can fit in your house.

First, it was risk, then it was material cost, and now it's time. I think it's "don't want to", and that is fine, but you have to admit that's what it is. You're attempting to extrapolate "don't want to" into "can't" as a general argument with all of this stuff that originated with microtensions, etc. The person who has an hour and who wants to improve will just do it.

You could probably take a few risks to learn to be more efficient by attempting things you've seen other people do and literally have enough time to make the things you want, make a few of the "little" things that sell, become known for them and accomplish all of the things at once.

 

[D_W]

By the way, I was grossly offended when my coworker kept telling me that I didn't want to finish the exams that I was taking, even though I was telling her that I did. I realized that she was right, though, after I cooled off.

 

[Tasky]

Now you're back to having the materials and time to do one hour of work per day. You've got plenty of time and materials to try new things and take some calculated risks.

Well since you know more about me, my body, my time, my money, my work and my life in general than I do - You can come do my woodworking, then... Best of luck dealing with the wife!!

First, it was risk, then it was material cost, and now it's time. I think it's "don't want to", and that is fine, but you have to admit that's what it is.

No. I just want to do what I want the way I know I have to, rather than what people *assume* I should just because that's what they do... If you want to replace my own woodworking gurus, you'll need a better YouTube channel and at least two books on the subject.

You could probably take a few risks to learn to be more efficient by attempting things you've seen other people do and literally have enough time to make the things you want, make a few of the "little" things that sell, become known for them and accomplish all of the things at once.

Or I could just make what I want, the way that works best for me, get the results I want and be all the happier for it...

 

[D_W]

If you ever travel to the states for work, let me know. I often get along best with people willing to have a spat and still talk. You seem like a good fellow to me - be glad to put you up for a day or two and make a pair of planes or something to send you back with.

As for improving my youtube channel, I think I'd have to turn ads on if I went to that effort and as you know - doing something you don't enjoy isn't that fun. Organizing and editing videos and worrying about things like cleaning up shop, etc, ....yuck.

 

[Tasky]

ccasion5:

 

[bugbear]

I guess the fact that I'm putting time and effort into casing up a CF stone in a traditional fashion, when I already have a cased arkansas and set of excellent japanese waterstones makes me a happy amateur.

I have said before - the only product I result from my workshop is happiness. Messing about in sheds is FUN!

BugeBear

 

[Phil Pascoe]

2 1/2 gross is 2.5 x 250 pieces = 625 pieces
BugBear

2.5 x 144 last I knew. :?

 

[AndyT]

2 1/2 gross is 2.5 x 250 pieces = 625 pieces
BugBear

2.5 x 144 last I knew. :?

Phil, back on page 8, before something like a digression, I quoted evidence that a bodger selling a gross of chair legs was expected to include the stretchers as well.
As there were three stretchers to every four legs, a gross of legs was actually 144+108=252 individual components.
252 was rounded to 250, but the calculation is sound.

The work of making all those parts would have included felling the trees, cutting logs of suitable length, splitting the logs into billets and preliminary shaping with the drawknife. It's not clear how that work was accounted for but it may have been included in the five shillings per "gross" paid to the bodger.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

In some Sheffield trades, a dozen was fourteen items. One for losses and breakages, and one for the hardener to break for examination of the fracture. The other twelve were all available for sale.

I think there were quite a few other 'qualified dozens' about, too. Isn't a Baker's dozen thirteen?