Education

[xy mosian]

David,

I too am coming to a similar conclusion. Perhaps a readily searched, categorised, collection of links to recommended existing resources. At least initially.
For instance maltrout512's very clear and concise explanation of his inlay technique is worthy of a link in any discussion of inlay work.
There are others.
I know the search facility here is good, as are others, but how do you ask for guidance on buying a Tenon saw if you don't know what to call it? Similarly unless a post, on here, is called "How to choose a Tenon saw", then it may be difficult to selectively filter results from a search.


Night Train,

I am aware of the fact that you teach, and have found your posts on here to be well worded. Without setting myself up as judge in any way, they are delivered in a way which suggests that you are both a good teacher and a very good, knowledgeable woodworker. Many others who post on here give the same impression.
But how to get newbies in touch with replies such as yours on tropics already covered.

I suspect most of us when coming across a post or web page that covers something of interest will create a favourite or bookmarked link.

Would it be very difficult to gather something like this together for less experienced woodworkers to use?

My thoughts run along the lines of a link structure appearing somewhat like the chapters of a book. In that way a complete novice could find a section about saws and then, perhaps after a very brief description of types, find other sections about say, Tenon, Dovetail, Rip, Crosscut, Gents etc. These latter sections inlcluding links to existing recommended resources or perhaps a paragraph or two in a text document.

xy

 

[AndyT]

Kazsub wrote:

It sounds like you are proposing something along the lines of a Wikipedia for wood - woodipedia I guess!. Is this the sort of thing you are thinking of?

- which gets to the nub of the problem here. If you want a wikipedia guide to woodwork, one already exists, at http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Woodworking - though it's far from complete.

The reason why is that writing good clear introductions to any subject is not easy. That's why there exist so many introductory books - as referred to in recent postings on this very forum.

I think that the strength of a forum like this is in answering specific, detailed questions which need unusual knowledge or experience. We'll all put the effort into answering those - and basic, newbie questions as well - but I don't think many of us want to spend hours typing up the basics.

Andy

 

[xy mosian]

Andy T,

I fully agree with that. I have demonstrated Lute making in the past and found lecturing very difficult. On the other hand a room full of visitors bursting with questions was good fun. Especially when they could answer questions amongst themselves.

That is partly why I was leaning towards a guide based on links to existing resources. I have been guilty of posting a new question rather than searching for a relevant existing thread. It must be galling to be asked "how to sharpen a plane", for example, for the umpteenth time.

A link to a concise reply, to that question, should get rid of that problem.

I'll have a look at the link you sent. Perhaps it fulfills all my imagined requirements and I can sleep easily.

xy

 

[wizer]

yes I think the key to a good wiki type site is for a good solid body of contributors. People who are dedicated to collating information from all corners of the internet into a single form of reference. I think it does need to be in the format of an encyclopaedia as this makes for a good research tool. The problem with sites like FWW.com is they can be hard to get a single answer from.

 

[Kazsub]

I think a wiki type site, user collated and edited information would be great. One thing I have learnt while learning woodwork is that there is always more than one way to do something and different appraoches suit different people - it would be interesting to be able to read through different approaches / philosophies to the same subject.
Downside of a wiki site / user edited content - there is often a comedian!

 

[xy mosian]

wizer, Kazsub,

I agree a wiki type site based on input from a good, respected body of contributors would be great. But as Andy T pointed out not many would be interested in spending un-paid time typing out basic instructions.

This led to my own leaning towards links to existing resources, with perhaps additions from knowledgeable folk with the inclination to help.

As for reading about different approaches, although I personally like the idea, I could see it being difficult for beginners. You are right there is always more than one way to do anything and the approach taken by woodworkers is often governed by available resources. Some might say " A table saw is an absolute must for a workshop" but what about the person wishing to make a bird table one weekend? I personally work on the principal of buying nothing until I need it, and then after research buying the best I can. I must point out that these days I am amateur, but still have some reasonable toys.

xy

 

[AndyT]

Xy,
I don't want to sound unsympathetic, and I've been through some of the same thought sequences as you. But I don't think you will ever find what you want.

Granted, there are plenty of lists of links (http://www.sonic.net/boyett/hand_woodworking.htm for example). But the sheer number of sites and the area to be covered makes these of limited use.

At the level of detail you want, it all becomes too much. You might want lots about veneering; I'd want lots about hand tools, etc. Just look at the way many contributors here will read (say) the turning forum but skip the scrolling forum.

So in the end, it quickly becomes too personal to be possible to please everyone.

I think the answer is to take a 'scrapbook' approach as you read. You can save lots of bookmarks or do this in software and create your own ever-expanding file of bits you have read.

Andy

 

[xy mosian]

Andy,

That is something I already do. In many areas.

However I would like to make something of the sort, pre compiled, available to beginners. I think my collection is generally too narrow for general use and I am trying to find a way of generating something of use to all.

xy

 

[dicktimber]

Maybe I missed the point but...
I seem to have read recently that the latest teaching reviews have concluded that pupils who attended (in the past) schools teaching woodworking, metalwork and domestic science(cooking) produced students with better skills and an overall different approach in direction to the next stage in their lives. It also ensured we had enough tradesmen.
( ok so we all new that anyway?)
What I find very difficult to accept is that, where we all log on to this site and talk about different aspects of woodworking, with topics raised from newbees to professionals there is now a void in learning continuity in this subject at shool level,which will take for ever to breech.
Lets face it woodworking or metalwoork is not a sexy subject. IT, and computer science, sound the business.
Schools should go back to catering for the lad or lass that maybe isn't computer literate, but is a wizard at using his hands in a more practical way.
The educational route in general caters for a learning path....., school, further education, University. Fine if all kids are academically inclined, but they aren't.
Hence the fall out at university level. How many drop outs are on the dole,when it could have been so different.
This system implemented by the government,should change to give our children the opportunity to enter into the workplace earlier, and for the ones with creative hand skills to pursue that vocation.


If I have missed the point of the discussion I apolagise...but they are only my observations as an old **rt!!!



mike

 

[Night Train]

Can I ask a daft question Night Train? Have you actually had a student who was unaware of the origins of timber?

Roy.

Well, it depends on how much detail you want.

There have been students who know timber comes from trees but that is about as far as their knowledge takes them. We then teach them about the differences between types of tree, hard wood and soft wood species, and where in the world they grow. We look at how round timber is converted to planks and is then seasoned or kiln dried. We also look at the properties of timber showing that grain direction and whether a plank is quarter sawn or flat sawn has an effect on strength and stability. Then we cover artificial boards, ply, MDF, gluelam, particle board, etc. and veneers for covering them.

I have seen students who have started marking out dovetails on a veneered MDF board without realising that it wasn't wood. I have also seen another use a lovely piece of fiddleback maple as a chopping board to protect the bench and a piece of wenge to protect their work from cramps.

There have been many students who start out thinking that chipboard and MDF is 'wood' in the sense of it being a timber.

Sadly there are young students who don't know about timber in the same way that there are kids that don't know that milk comes from cows.

 

[Night Train]

Perhaps a readily searched, categorised, collection of links to recommended existing resources. At least initially.
For instance maltrout512's very clear and concise explanation of his inlay technique is worthy of a link in any discussion of inlay work.
There are others.
I know the search facility here is good, as are others, but how do you ask for guidance on buying a Tenon saw if you don't know what to call it? Similarly unless a post, on here, is called "How to choose a Tenon saw", then it may be difficult to selectively filter results from a search.


Night Train,

I am aware of the fact that you teach, and have found your posts on here to be well worded. Without setting myself up as judge in any way, they are delivered in a way which suggests that you are both a good teacher and a very good, knowledgeable woodworker. Many others who post on here give the same impression.
But how to get newbies in touch with replies such as yours on tropics already covered.

xy

I can see the benefit of what I think you are looking for. A good glossary of tools, machines, timbers, joints and working methods could be a start with links to details and examples of each. that way a novice can look up 'table saw' in the glossary and see threads explaining how they are used, what they are used for and examples of members using their saws for specific projects includig the jigs that they have made. the jigs can then be cross referenced into the 'jigs' entry.
It can include both complicated processes and very simple 'how to buy a bit of soft wood at B&Q' types of entries.

I use a Land Rover forum where they have a tech archive. Here they keep all the threads on specific processes for repair, maintenance, modifications, accessories, etc. and there is a sticky at the top with an index of hyperlinks to each thread broken down in subject order.
I can't link to the forum as it is in a hidden members only section of the site but if anyone want to have a look then it is www.LR4x4.com.

 

[Grinding One]

Might I direct you to the Store that sells tools...
Take pictures of what you see,write down the name of the tool,
Look it up on you tube.com,or wiki
Now your moving forward....They will show you how its used
Another route,get hold of some old Military Manuels ,great training aids.

 

[lurker]

That don't work over here G1, good tool stores are rare beasts.

 

[WellsWood]

.....,get hold of some old Military Manuels ,great training aids.

but probably only if you speak Spanish :wink:

 

[AndyT]

Xy and everyone.

I've now thought a bit more about this and agree that it's an idea with possibilities, and I don't think it does exist yet. But it's a big undertaking that provokes a lot of questions/possibilities. To summarise:

We'd need to start with an empty structure - chapter headings, sub-headings. At the top level, this would be much like the actual chapter headings in any of hundreds of introductory books. Deeper structure either needs someone very organised, or else to be left to grow.

Under each heading, there would be links to content drawn from sites such as this one, enthusiasts' sites, suppliers' sites. Do you see this as being a text heading + the link itself, or would you want to display the actual third-party content, embedded on the page?
You'd need some way to expand or contract the level of detail, and many site owners would object to embedding content but not to linking, so I guess it's the former.

• Where could it be hosted?
  What sort of development platform?
  Would you make the structure and the content user-edited, or try to exert editorial control and keep order in the structure?
  What quality control would there be on the content, if any?
  Would you need a policy about exploiting the site to sell tools etc? Or could it be funded that way? (but then it wouldn't be impartial...)
  Would there be enough collective energy to produce it? It's far closer to the feel of Wikipedia than the fun of answering questions you sometimes know the answer to. There's a risk of taking away the reward of knowing your advice has been useful.
  There would be a huge problem of link fatigue.
  Pictures would be especially likely to disappear as people cease to maintain old hosting accounts.

Any more questions?
Any answers?


Andy

 

[Santos]

Hello all,


Well this is my first post hear, however not my first read may I hastily add! I stumbled across this forum a few months ago when my enthusiasm for woodwork grew exponentially with the potential promise of my own personal workshop, leading to some research in the world of woodworking. Before I somewhat address the topic brought up by XY I would firstly like to express a great deal of gratitude to everyone on this forum, as over the past few months I have learnt a great deal just by reading what you people have posted. So thanks!


XY, in your initial post you said that woodwork had been dropped from the current educational syllabus. In some ways I must say I agree with you, as woodwork isn’t a widely practiced subject these days, especially in schools. This much may be true for the majority of schools in the United Kingdom; however there are some select schools within the UK which teach the basics and more. I know this from personal experience, as I’ve recently finished a course encompassing a wide range of woodwork practices, which later allowed the creation of a hand made bedside table.


Before I go on more I better say now that I am a complete newbie at woodwork, and life for that matter! Although probably as many of you here I have found the practise is a very enjoyable and calming one. A few of you have suggested a tutorial, or “woodipedia” for newbie’s such as me. Personally I think this is a brilliant idea, as even I have demonstrated that the rudimentary knowledge of such a masterful practice can somewhat be learnt through reading, to a certain degree. However, thinking about this site in general I have found the Video tutorials to be of great educational value, as I’ve found it a lot easier to understand the techniques behind the various skills and practices in woodwork. So perhaps it may prove advantageous to post videos of certain aspects in woodwork, such as knowing how to use tools correctly and safely, perhaps even simple basic joinery newbie’s such as myself can use in small projects to get started and learn basics of tool control.- If of course this isn’t too time consuming, or difficult to implement?

(Sorry about the long post, by all means skim it!)

-Dan

 

[DaveL]

Hi Dan,

Welcome to the forum.

 

[xy mosian]

Night Train.

I think your description of a possible set up is getting close to final draft, thank you.
I also like the description of the 'techie' set up on the land Rover forum. Unfortunately links to threads on this forum are exactly that, a link to a thread. This means that amongst the good wishes, praise and general banter, which is a great part of it all. Sometimes a little effort is required to pick out useful detail from the original poster, along with readers comments and general detail chat. For instance a question clearing up a small, perhaps overlooked detail, can easily be missed.
There may not be too many ways around this. Very specific posts spring to mind but I think that would loose some of the spotaneity that makes forum such as these so appealing. Editing would work, with suitable permissions of course, but by who?

 

[xy mosian]

dicktimber,

What can I say, but Hear Hear!

 

[xy mosian]

AndyT,

Thanks for the obvious time you have given to thinking about this. What a deal of good points.

Hosting, I have been offered space for hosting by another forum member, no details hammered out yet of course.

Developement platform, an existing well developed engine would be best. After a hint from wizer, thanks, I find that Wikipedia is based on a free open source engine. Looks good enough to me.

Editing of content, a tricky one. It would be wrong to expect experts to write large chunks of what is basically training manual. They have to earn a living. It may be difficult to prevent someone with a slightly out of kilter approach hogging the system to push a point of view. That is why I have a leaning towards pre-existing material. After all the work is done. I think I would look for users to add links to sites etc. which they have found to give useful answers to particular problems. Something along the lines of " If you do not find what you are looking for here, let us know where you did find the detail you required". This of course brings up the problems about links to threads that I outlined above.

Quality control, of course. Not sure how.

Exploitation? There would seem to be little point in not providing users with the means to contact tool suppliers and sellers. But I would rather see discussions about what to look for in right-handed-widgets and a short list of possible suppliers, than specific recommendations. That belongs in forums such as this. As for funding from adverts, I have not given that much thought, funding has to come from somewhere.

I take your point about the effort required to produce a Wikipedia look-alike, and I think that could be largely covered by the notes I made above about the use of links. I think that magazines etc. should make more of their archive material, after all magazine articles must surely already exist in digital format.

Link fatique. A Web Site designer I did some work for at one time, told me that he tried to set up sites to allow full access to all points with three clicks. That seems very difficult and would largely depend upon the original structure.

Disappearing pictures. Without hosting the whole lot I don't see how to get around that. We have all come across content that should have been dumped ages ago, past its sell by date, and perhaps this is a natural process. However there cannot be too many sources of information which are unique.