Easy project for dovetail practice

[Jacob]

..
the dovetails were similar to English style

what is English style?

......Anyway, the conclusion of the majority of posters was that the dovetails were sloppy and "they wouldn't tolerate them in their furniture". They weren't that sloppy, I was surprised how well they were done given that they were certainly done at pace.......

I really like that irregularity you get with DT and other work done by experts at speed. Over-done "perfection" can indicate a plodding amateur.

 

[Jacob]

And we're off.

Because Peterson is a star amongst the alt right any mention of him becomes a political discussion conducted through code and proxy.

Mods, we're now only a few replies away from the first mention of "Hitler" and "Brexit". Rule 6 says this should be kicked into the long grass.

I didn't know he was a star of the alt right, I just thought he was a self important airhead. That's not political is it?

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Peterson isn't even close to 'alt-right', as anybody who had been paying any attention at all would know. He's not particularly political (his outlook is far deeper than that), but when pressed (as inevitably happens) he's aligned himself with an English classical liberal position.

However - that's enough politics. Let's get back to introductory dovetailing projects.

 

[Silly_Billy]

Not only am I learning about woodwork on this forum, but I’m learning about Jordan Peterson too

Back to dovetails, stock prep is going to be critical, because I’m doing everything by hand.

 

[D_W]

..
the dovetails were similar to English style

what is English style?

......Anyway, the conclusion of the majority of posters was that the dovetails were sloppy and "they wouldn't tolerate them in their furniture". They weren't that sloppy, I was surprised how well they were done given that they were certainly done at pace.......

I really like that irregularity you get with DT and other work done by experts at speed. Over-done "perfection" can indicate a plodding amateur.

Relatively delicate pins, no attempt to make a million tails in a small space, and drawer sides that don't look like they're minimally planed 4/4 material.

Yes on the irregularity, but it's the "can't see it from 6 feet away" kind of thing. when you get closer, you can see that someone did the work by skill and it's good, but not calipers perfect in terms of even size. It's skilled-eye even. But the proportions are right, just like a car with good lines.

 

[D_W]

And we're off.

Because Peterson is a star amongst the alt right any mention of him becomes a political discussion conducted through code and proxy.

Mods, we're now only a few replies away from the first mention of "Hitler" and "Brexit". Rule 6 says this should be kicked into the long grass.

I didn't know he was a star of the alt right, I just thought he was a self important airhead. That's not political is it?

I didn't know Peterson was "alt right". I think he's been claimed as such. He's a Harvard/McGill personality profile expert. Skip the people who want to claim someone for politics. Politics is a trap for the stupid. An attempt to disguise pro-wrestling promotion (good guy, bad guy, face, heel, you're on my team - we can agree without thought). I would much prefer if nobody ever takes anything I say and tries to point it toward politics - it's sheer stupidity.

Think for yourself before deciding that Peterson is political and every reference to him is. He emphasizes something that is basic on behavioral therapy - improve yourself every day a little at a time, compare yourself to yourself of yesterday, not to other people, which can get you into thinking traps. That is an extremely useful philosophy. The same applies to woodworking - you will improve incrementally if you choose to. If you fall into thinking traps or comparing yourself only to the people who do things better than you (sometimes because they're showing you a biased view of their work), you may stop before improving.

Think about how incremental improvement has brought about design and tools before we decided that "engineers" could design a better tool without having a clue.

Find something to improve on every time you take on a project instead of just making 100 sets of throwaway dovetails that you trim off of scrap and do over. Find a design principle, you can spot something everywhere.

Take a look at the cove moulding in Stewie's thread. Tell me what's wrong with it...

.... it violates a basic tenet of good design. There is a flat in the center of a cove, the curve is not continuous in its transition akin to a straight line being stuffed in the middle of a curve. I made the first eyes on my planes like that and I couldn't figure out why they looked bad, and George wilson told me that in ten seconds "it is either a curve, or it is a straight line. Do not put the two together".

The next time someone mentions Hitler or some English political garbage in response to anything I post, I won't return to this board. Come on. WTF is wrong with you guys?

 

[D_W]

A lot of people think Peterson is just another self elected would-be guru and a prat. I do too, even if he did build his own furniture!

I doubt you have anything in your profession that is remotely as good as his work in his in the 90s. Perhaps someday, you'll come up with "I think" instead of "a lot of people think". Who cares what a lot of people think? A lot of people think you can't do good work sharpening with oilstones.

 

[dzj]

Not only am I learning about woodwork on this forum, but I’m learning about Jordan Peterson too

Back to dovetails, stock prep is going to be critical, because I’m doing everything by hand.

I think you are introducing too many variables at once. Unless you are very good at stock prep,
that is.
As for incremental improvement and all that, there is sense in such an approach.
But if someone has had issues with manual dexterity their whole life, perhaps another hobby
might be more rewarding.

 

[memzey]

Peterson’s work is not political and rather encourages the individual to take responsibility for their own being by living neither in too much chaos nor too much order. DW basically nailed it with reference to his approach to incremental improvements in things - Don’t be overawed, tackle one thing at a time, measure your progress against who you were yesterday not someone else (whoever they might be).

Anyway - dovetails; in my limited experience thus far I’ve concluded that perfectly even rake on both sides of a tail and/or uniform rake across all tails in a board is less important in most work than getting the proportions correct. At the very top end buyers may expect it of a piece they have dropped thousands of pounds on but in my house if SWMBO can’t tell then it’s a wasted effort . Actually in terms of the saw cuts to be made themselves, although the rake angle of the cuts are what seems to be most often written about, I think a more important aspect of the tail board cuts is ensuring that they are as square to the face as you can make them - something I didn’t grasp at first which held me back from tight joints. When doing your beginner project I think that would be a good point to remember.

 

[StraightOffTheArk]

I've made a few small boxes using quite thin boards - 10mm or a bit less, and while the dovetails were functionally sound, they were messy and not terribly good looking - hence the lack of photo's, but when I did some using much thicker stuff, about an inch if I remember correctly, my dovetails improved markedly not only because they were larger and therefore less fiddly but also because the geometry was much more obvious, especially the point above about squareness, which meant that when I did smaller ones again, they were also much improved - although not enough for me to want to include photographic evidence! All of which is just a long-winded way of saying, "size matters!"

HTH

 

[DTR]

I've made a few small boxes using quite thin boards - 10mm or a bit less, and while the dovetails were functionally sound, they were messy and not terribly good looking - hence the lack of photo's, but when I did some using much thicker stuff, about an inch if I remember correctly, my dovetails improved markedly not only because they were larger and therefore less fiddly but also because the geometry was much more obvious, especially the point above about squareness, which meant that when I did smaller ones again, they were also much improved - although not enough for me to want to include photographic evidence! All of which is just a long-winded way of saying, "size matters!"

HTH

That's why it's good practise, at least in my experience, to gang-cut the tail boards where possible. By ganging several boards together you are turning two (or more) thin boards into one thick board. It's quicker too! :lol:

 

[Tasky]

A lot of people think Peterson is just another self elected would-be guru and a prat. I do too, even if he did build his own furniture!

What are his 12 Rules Of Sharpening Chisels, then? :lol:

Seen a few of his vids, didn't really gel with his general guru advicey stuff, liked his explanations on some stuff, but not a big fan of psychologists in general. Good luck to him, not for me though...

OP, remember to post some photos so we can follow your progress!!

 

[custard]

That's why it's good practise, at least in my experience, to gang-cut the tail boards where possible. By ganging several boards together you are turning two (or more) thin boards into one thick board. It's quicker too! :lol:

I sort of half agree with that Dave.

Or rather I fully agree that ganging up tail boards makes it easier to saw perfectly perpendicular to the face of the board, I do it all the time,

Where I disagree though is extending that experience to conclude that it's easier to dovetail in thicker boards than thinner boards.

I really sweat when I'm dovetailing in say 40mm or 50mm thick stock, because the thicker the board the less you can rely on a "compression fit" to deliver a gap free joint. The quality of the saw work needs to be 100% flawless or it'll look like crepe.

If I'm exhibiting I'll often try to have some slightly more affordable items for sale. One easy answer is to take a highly figured board about nine feet long, 40mm thick, and say 350 or 400mm wide. Cross cut in about 500mm from each end and dovetail these end parts onto the remaining longer centre section. It's an instant Hall Bench or coffee table, it's contemporary, if the timber is sufficiently spectacular then it has loads of impact, and best of all I can easily bang a couple out within a day including finishing. They sell like hot cakes, but the reason I don't make more is I find it quite stressful cutting mitred corner dovetails in 40mm or 50mm thick hardwood. I'll dovetail drawers all day long without a care in the world, but I'm not quite so confident of delivering tight, gap free joinery every single time when it comes to thicker stock. I haven't done so yet, but I'm acutely (and uncomfortably) conscious that one tiny slip and the board is pretty much ruined.

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

I recently tried a tip from Derek Cohen of using blue masking tape for the transfer from the tail board to the pin board, highly recommend it. Here's Derek's website with him demonstrating it on some half blinds http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ ... eTape.html

 

[memzey]

I recently tried it too although the first place I read about it was in a FWW article (possibly by Mike Pekovich). Agree that it works well - I used it on the dovetails of my daughter’s toy chest in the projects section and it definitely helped.

 

[StraightOffTheArk]

So, to avoid the perils of too thin, too thick, what would be the ideal board thickness for beginners dovetails?

 

[ED65]

Scale the thickness to the size of saw being used?

Obviously there's lots of leeway, with big saws being capable of small-scale work if needed, but a smaller gents' saw or razor saw are ideal for thinner stock and as the saw size goes up from that there's arguably a sweet spot for stock thickness.

 

[custard]

So, to avoid the perils of too thin, too thick, what would be the ideal board thickness for beginners dovetails?

Start dovetailing with wood that's been accurately flattened and trued. So if that means working with boards a bit different from the optimal thickness then so be it. Ultimately your finest dovetailing will likely be done with drawer sides that are about 12mm thick, but sourcing flat and true 12mm boards isn't easy for the beginner.

All these videos about dovetailing skip over stock preparation, they start with dead flat and true boards, with perfect 90 degree ends, magically appearing on the bench. If you have a good planer/thicknesser and an accurate cross cut saw then no problems, if not you'll likely find stock preparation more demanding than the actual dovetailing.

 

[StraightOffTheArk]

Thanks for that, especially the advice on the importance of initial stock preparation - something I am always finding new reasons for! - but, roughly speaking, what would be the ideal board thickness?

 

[Jacob]

There isn't an ideal board thickness. Instead choose what you want to make and have thickness defined by that. Or just pick up some pieces of wood and use them as they come.
10 to 12mm is common for drawer sides, down to 8 for very small stuff. Thin means less wood wasted, is quicker, probably easier?
PS "gang" cutting isn't easy and I'm pretty sure (from looking at old stuff) that only two sides were ever cut together in the old days, when hand tool productivity was top priority.