Dust Extraction Problem!!!

[Michel]

Hello All,

when i bought my Scheppach TS2500 table saw at the start of the year i also bought the Scheppach ha2600 extractor with fine filter.

The intention was to use the extractor in the new workshop to run my extraction system (including table saw, power tools etc.) consisting of 110mm soil pipe with blast gates.

However i have read a few articles on this site and in magazines/books, which seem to say that my type of extractor is only good for chippings and not good for power tools and long duct runs. From what i can see i should have bought a vacuum extractor similar to the axminster WV1000 or Record DX 5000.

I know from reading past articles on the forum that a few members have also bought the HA2600 and wondered how their system worked etc.

Just hoping i haven't wasted my money :?

Any info/opinions would be appreciated

Cheers

Michel

 

[bg]

I might be giving you some bad new I’m afraid. I bought a Scheppach dust extractor (I’m not at home at the moment and I cant remember the model number) and fine filter a while back and recently tried to link it to a short’ish run of soil pipes with some blast gates. The results were not impressive at all especially where a reduction to a narrow pipe was called for. It now just does duty for my router table where it works well enough. I was at Tools last Friday as saw some proper kit in action and the Scheppach just did not compare. I’m back to the drawing board myself on a decent set up for the workshop. I dont suppose its any comfort to know you are not alone in this though.

 

[Chris Knight]

I have had this unit for years and it performs well for me.

It is important to distinguish between a device for taking dust from a hand held power tool like a router or biscuit jointer or sander and a static woodworking machine like a thicknesser or planer. The latter needs something like the HA2600 and the former needs something like a domestic vacuum (souped-up workshop version) One is HVLP the other is LVHP so to speak - and they do not cross-over duties.

I wouldn't use my Scheppach with the router and I wouldn't use my shopvac with my planer or tablesaw.

 

[Michel]

Thank you for the replies

Re.

I wouldn't use my Scheppach with the router and I wouldn't use my shopvac with my planer or tablesaw.

I to was at the Tools show but on Thursday and i spoke to them on the axminster stand and they told me that the WV1000 and WV2000 were perfect for a full system and could cope with thicknesser/planer and power tools like router mitre saw etc (as long as only one is used at one time).

Would you not agree with this :?:

regards

Michel

 

[Adam]

Have you looked here:

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1530

and here:

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2785

Adam

 

[Chris Knight]

Michel,

I have no experience with these particular machines and thus cannot answer your question.

I would observe however that (looking at the picture of the WV1000 unit on the Axminsters site)- it looks like a Record dust extractor that I threw in a skip. The design in my view is perfectly awful, where the suction tries to swallow its own bag which consequently has to be held in place with a sort of steel framework. The bag also has to be supported off the floor whilst changing it, leading to dust everywhere.

Not putting too fine a point on it, I think this design (or at least the Record version which I dumped) is the product of a lazy, mental deficient who should have been ground into a fine powder and fed to his own machine.

By contrast the little WV100 which I have connected to a drum sander works pretty well and is worth the money BUT it is really only suitable for that particular duty in my mind.

 

[Alf]

Not putting too fine a point on it, I think this design (or at least the Record version which I dumped) is the product of a lazy, mental deficient who should have been ground into a fine powder and fed to his own machine.

Is now the time to mention I design dust extractors...?

Nah, just kidding.

I have one, and I agree. The blasted thing actually shreds its own bags at it sucks them up onto the metal cage doo-dah. It claims to do everything, and is so frequently the way, fails at them all. Avoid like the plague. Mine goes just beautifully with the Maxi...

Cheers, Alf

 

[UKTony]

i've had a similar problem with my Perform Extractor which is rated at 750W with a 4 inch hose, looking at the axminster catalouge they recommend a 1000w extractor/vac for use with there dust extraction kit for 4 63mm devices. Whilst on the subject i fitted my airfilter at the weekend pain in the butt to get it in on the ceiling but does a great job

 

[ProShop]

Boy! am I pleased I read this thread, as I was about to get one.

Phew.......... Thank You ...Thank You .......

 

[Alf]

Boy! am I pleased I read this thread, as I was about to get one.

Phew.......... Thank You ...Thank You .......

You weren't gonna ask here first?!

Deary, deary me. I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell ya. Wish I'd had this place to guide me clear of the lemons that currently clutter up the workshop.

Of course if I had, I'd probably be hopelessly in debt and up to my ears in hand planes by now. Oh wait, I am...

Cheers, Alf

P.S. Did I mention I'm shocked?

 

[mrbmcg]

Hi Folks

I'd just like to add that I have the Record DX5000 machine that I think John Elliot is referring.

I agree that the bag design leaves a lot to be desired and I too gleefully ripped through my first bag when I switched it on

(Nothing a bit of duct tape won't fix though)

Fitting the bag is fiddly too unless you replace the pathetic plastic strap with a metal one which you can fold the bag over the edge of and fit in 10 seconds

The thing about this type of extractor is that being a high pressure system it *does* work well with a system of pipes whereas your bag type (generally speaking) will lose suction very quickly with the added static pressure a ducted system will bring. I use it with about 8m of 100mm pipe to all the machines I used to use (I only have one now ). Even with a 50mm take off at my router table it works wonderfully.

I would recommend one to anybody, but......

1) Get a big bit of bubble wrap or a large jiffy envelope and tape it round the metal frame hanging from the unit. It will stop the narrow bit of metal tearing through the bags if you clog the end up.

2) Get a metal clamp strap that you can fold the edges of the bag over

If these two things were addressed I would say the Record is the best non-industrial extractor I've seen.

Bill Pentz has a great website dedicated to dust extraction for woodworking machines, I was so impressed I sent him a donation for the wonderful information contained within.

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm

 

[ProShop]

You weren't gonna ask here first?!

Deary, deary me. I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell ya. Wish I'd had this place to guide me clear of the lemons that currently clutter up the workshop.

Cheers, Alf

I feel well & truly admonished now . I promise to ask here before I place my plastic in future

P.S. Did I mention I'm shocked?

and up to my ears in hand planes by now. Oh wait, I am...

Dare I mention I'm in the market for a small smoothing plane........ :wink:

 

[bg]

Thanks mrbmcg for the link, a most interesting site, and asleitch for the link to his cyclone design, much food for thought indeed. A new design of my workshop dust extraction is being considered with more concern than before, and more hope I can get a good solution!

 

[DaveL]

Michel,

You might like to look at what I have done here

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2352

and

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1405

I hope its useful.

 

[Martin]

Michel,

I have the HA2600 with fine filter and it works fine with most of my machines - but I fully concur with the above posts - this type of extractor isn't designed for every tool in the workshop, and I end up using my old shop vac for the smaller tools. I find the HA2600 works very well with the TS, bandsaw, thicknesser and benchtop jointer. It works less well with the router table, but I think that's in part down to how effectively the table itself is designed for dust collection. I use the shop vac for sanders, handheld routers etc.

I have the HA2600 running through about 5 meters of ceiling mounted steel ducting, with a few twists here and there - and about 4 blast gates. One of the blast gates is fitted "in-line" in the ducting, which allows me to isolate the vast majority of the pipe run when using machines that are closer to the extractor. This seems to work well.

I haven't noticed any significant loss of performance when using machines at the end of the pipe run, although I typically am only using one extractor pipe feed at a time - if you get my drift (the only exception being when I connect the TS, which has feeds from the base and crown guard simultaneously).

I too found that the performance dropped significantly if you go to smaller diameter hoses, but following advice from Adam I fitted a 100mm to 58mm reducing adaptor at the point of connection to the machine, and get good results. This fitting is used for the TS crown guard, the jointer and also router table - the adaptor is push fit, so I just switch between them depending on which machine I'm using.

The other thing I noticed at first was that the extractor was losing air around the waste sack ring - but having tightened up the ring a little it seemed to work better.

HTH.

regards,
Martin.

P.S. All of the ducting is 100mm (not 110mm). Not sure if this makes any difference...

 

[Midnight]

Dare I mention I'm in the market for a small smoothing plane........

ruh roh....... now you've done it......

 

[Michel]

Hello everyone ,

Thank you for all the opinions and advice they have all been very helpful.

from what i can see i would be better off having two extraction systems my HA2600 for my table saw and p/t with 110mm soil pipe and a Axminster WV1 or 2 Dust Vacuum or similar connected to ducting ( 63mm dust extraction kit) for my power tools and mitre saw etc.

What do you think :?: :?: :?:

Regards

Michel

 

[Adam]

but following advice from Adam I fitted a 100mm to 58mm reducing adaptor at the point of connection to the machine, and get good results.

Blimey, some I advised worked? :shock:

Michel,

You need to get two concepts into your mind I think, high volume low pressure (HVLP), and low volume high pressure (LVHP). Each type of system is suited to different things.

Moving high volumes at high pressure would work with everything, sadly, you'd need such a large motor to drive it, you'd need to connect directly to a power station!

When using a narrow pipe, it's very difficult to suck large amounts of air through it - as it's a bottleneck, but this is ideally suited to power tools which produce (relatively) limited amounts of dust/chippings, and a compact hose take-off is convenient. Any standard vacuum cleaner operated on these principles. (your "shop-vac"). E.g. low volume high pressure

Anything that produces large amounts of chippings/dust (i.e. table saw/ P/T) needs something that can cope with such a volume, and is normally considered a high volume low pressure - e.g. if you put your hand across the end of the pipe, it's easy to pull your hand away. This is your HA2600.

No matter what any manufacturer says, I don't think you will find any system that really works optimally in both situations - you'll find you need both.

Restricting your HA2600 to a narrow pipe e.g. for your router/hand sander - will result in neglible air-flow - and similarly opening your vacuum to a 100mm pipe from the table saw will also result in neglible airflow.

Using a single system will result in such comprimises, that you won't get the health benefits of sucking all the dust away, or it won't cope with the volume of chips. So yes, you need both. I'd be wary of going for 63mm for your low-volume high pressure system, I'd follow the pipe diameter of whatever you are using as you vacuum, otherwise the static pressure will drop in the areas where the pipe gets very large (i.e. 63mm), and you'll get dust sitting in it. Much better to keep the pipe narrow (i.e. 30mm or 40mm or whatever the vacuum is), and maintain a high airflow rate, and keep that dust moving. (the opposite applies to the HA2600 - you want the pipe as large as possible, with as few narrow restrictions as possible - although I found 110mm acceptable)

With regard to the take-off on the crown guard on the tablesaw, running 100mm pipe all the way to the gaurd, with a final adaptor at the very end, will result in a surprisingly good dust takeoff, for reasons detailed in my posts that I linked in.

Good luck.

Adam

 

[Michel]

Hello everyone,

i have done a bit of research into Camvac and their design seems to be almost identical to the record dx5000 and the axminster wv1000 and 2000. When i spoke to the technical department at Camvac they told me that for my requirements i would need a twin motor (2 x 1000 watt) 2.5 inch outlet machine (not 4 inch) either the GV286W, GV336 or GV386. They told me that the 2.5 inch outlet would be fine for all my machines and i would just need to reduce down to 100mm when i get to my table saw etc.

I assume that this setup would be almost identical to the one that Andy King has in his home workshop, which from his posts on the forum seems to work fine.

One thing i can't understand is why the axminster wv2000 is so much more expensive compared to the record DX5000, Which seems to have the same spec. :?

I'm now thinking of running a 2.5 inch system and using my HA2600 just for my p/t.

Just trying not to make to many mistakes on the new workshop, seen as i have a blank canvas as such.

Regards

Michel

 

[Adam]

Hello everyone,

i have done a bit of research into Camvac and their design seems to be almost identical to the record dx5000 and the axminster wv1000 and 2000. When i spoke to the technical department at Camvac they told me that for my requirements i would need a twin motor (2 x 1000 watt) 2.5 inch outlet machine (not 4 inch) either the GV286W, GV336 or GV386. They told me that the 2.5 inch outlet would be fine for all my machines and i would just need to reduce down to 100mm when i get to my table saw etc.

I assume that this setup would be almost identical to the one that Andy King has in his home workshop, which from his posts on the forum seems to work fine.

One thing i can't understand is why the axminster wv2000 is so much more expensive compared to the record DX5000, Which seems to have the same spec. :?

I'm now thinking of running a 2.5 inch system and using my HA2600 just for my p/t.

Just trying not to make to many mistakes on the new workshop, seen as i have a blank canvas as such.

Regards

Michel

Of course, your research is leading you directly away from the the advice on the Bill Pentz website.... e.g.

dust collectors and even air filters lack ample airflow to collect the fine dust at the source and their way too open filters greatly increase our exposure by constantly recycling the unhealthiest fine dust.

...."He said at typical hobbyist blower pressures we need all 6inch diameter duct, fittings, machine dust ports, and flex hose to move enough air to capture the fine dust as it is made"

I'd suggest using short lengths, and 4" as a minimum, and beware of his warning....as you are talking about going even less. (63mm?)

my manufacturer's representative gave me bad information telling me nonsense about air cleaners and dust collectors

Hmm, I'd take anything everybody (including us) says with a pinch of salt.

Adam