Dust (Again)

[stable]

Hello,

I posted up here some time ago and got some very helpful pointers...

(dust-dust-and-more-dust-t42014.html)

However some time on and I really haven't managed to get on top of my dust problem and it's getting to the point where I'm so exhausted and going in circles I'm considering packing in the business that I have invested the last 4 years of my life in. Which I've built from nothing.

I'm in a 60' x 40' odd unit. With one table saw, router, belt sander etc. Building speaker cabinets from birch ply (exclusively) painted with water based paints. So ply is my problem. I must say my profit is very low but so are my overheads. This means I don't have much cash to throw at tools etc.

The dust is very fine and i have attempted to build an extractor system using axminsters saw hood gurd and a home built extractor but it just doesn't seem to touch the dust kicked out from the saw. I have a bottom 'sheath' over the blade too but it still seems to kick out an amazing amount of dust right out the front of the saw.

The pipe work from extractor to saw is 68mm and about 6m long - is this too small? it doesn't seem to pull anything like what I thought it would... I know the extractor itself should be monstrous as it's a 22" 4353cfm clarke fan in a box.

The fan moved outside the shop, blasting at the sheep - I'm based on a hill in the middle of nowhere, this is one benefit.

I use a silicone bodied P3 3m mask and never take it off. It seems top notch however most days I get lung pain

Would a decent full face powered mask be the answer? Or have I already sensitized my lungs to the point I'm never going to be able to work in this kind of environment again? I'm only 29 and been doing this for 4 years.

Thanks to anyone who's thralled this email and can give me some last words of hope perhaps.

Tom

 

[tomatwark]

Tom

You need to buy a proper dust extractor, you can pick them up on ebay second hand.

I paid £400 for mine which is a twin bag unit it with a 4 hp motor, this price included all the ducting and gates I needed to do my whole workshop.

You can pick up a smaller one than that for less money.

The pipe from the saw needs to be at least 4" but bigger if poss.

Is the fan you using a proper dust extraction fan or one of the air moving fans that machine mart sell?

Are you painting by hand or spraying?

It may be you need to look at your pricing so you can afford better extraction because at the end of the day dying from cancer caused by dust is not a good business model.

Post some pictures and see if we can help you sort it.

Tom

 

[No skills]

Having spent far too much time wearing 3m p2 respirator masks I can confirm that their pretty good for particulate filtering and they seal round the face very well - letting next to nothing in if you adjust it properly. One of these might be worth a punt (£20) to see if it helps in the short term, the mask I found when I searched for the p3 seems to be one that has a metal strip in the material across the nose that you adjust to fit you when you first put it on. IME these are pretty poor for wearing over a long time and never seal propperly on your face, after a while they let in dust and if your sensitive like you are then you might as well not be wearing it.

I cant really comment on the dust extraction on your tools or workshop space as I havent enough experience but it does make sense to me that if you cant make the air in the shop dust free then you need to bring in clean air to yourself via a air fed mask of some sort.

JMO

 

[belcher]

it sounds like your system isn't powerful enough, in our workshop we've got two extractors,1 two bag monster just for the planer and a single bag for the radial arm and sawbench, both would suck a golf ball through a garden hose,i don't know the exact power of them but when the single bag is full it blows dust out the front of the saw, the pipes are 150mm aluminium,
belcher.PS loads on ebay.

 

[stable]

Tom I think you have hit the nail on the head - if I'm not able to afford the kit i need then the business isn't viable.

I will look into a monster extractor system then! That's my problem no. 1.

I use a really good 3m 7500 silicone face seal mask - with p3 filter which I believe is the highest rating.

I have noted that the full face Trend and JSP powered respirators only seem to be P2 rating.

If my mask is P3 and fitting well and I still have lung pain is it worth spending £200+ on a fancy mask that is technically worse..?

Tom

 

[No skills]

That 7500 mask has a very similar seal to the ones I mentioned so your not going to gain anything there, to be fair I think you would need to borrow one of the air fed masks to know for sure, I get a fair bit of 'condensation' inside my masks after a long period of use - I have always thought that having a fresh air feed would be better but its speculation on my part. The experts seem to be pointing at a big workshop filter which seems to be good value compared to the air fed masks.

 

[Ollie78]

I have dust issues too, I am sure we all do.
I am using a couple of bin type extractors at the moment which I move from machine to machine as I am using them.
I have been using a Trend airshield pro for routing and anything involving MDF. I have found it much better than previous masks I have tried
due to the fact that I wear glasses and some masks fog my glasses up straight away. The airshield is great as it stops my glasses fogging and its not like trying to breath through a straw.
Its definately filtering pretty well as you can see there is no dust on the inner filter even when the outer one is quite filthy.
Its also quite nice to be protected from flying debris.

Thinking outside the box a bit (if I may) perhaps your lungs are hurting from breathing through a restrictive mask all day, thus increasing the load on your lungs and diaphragm.
I wonder if anyone has done any research on this as I would be interested to know about it.

Also I have seen a powered respirator from Triton that looks good but I could not buy one anywhere easily so got the airshield.
I am currently coveting a Oneida cyclone extractor set up.

Ollie

 

[stable]

I'd like to think my lungs are painful due to the extra work they do due to mask. But I know deep down that the dust is at play.

The fact that the mask is working properly concerns me as it's P3 rated. I think I've just become very sensitive to the birch dust. It's very fine stuff so get's everywhere in massive levels. I can cut up 20 sheets of 8'x4' at a go. If I can get extraction sorted then maybe I can get the levels down enough to stop causing me pain. It just such a massive space getting on top of it is daunting.

Just looking at extractors on ebay, the Charwood ones seem very good value: Item number: 140474917000 / Item number: 140539845791

Anyone any idea what sort of air displacement I'm going to need to pull from a circular saw top and bottom? about 8 meters from extractor.

 

[9fingers]

Another problem will be 6 metres of 68mm hose.
The friction down this will be costing you lots of potential airflow.
You need at least 100mm and ideally shorten the run or use rigid pipe which has a smooth inside.
110mm drain pipe is pretty cheap.

Bob

 

[powertools]

The fan you are using is not the type to be connected to reduced size ducting and should be use to vent the entire building by having it's full diameter exposed to the open air at the opposite end of te building to an open door or window.
I think that the main problem may be to do with the saw itself, it is surprising that you are producing as much airbourne dust from cutting plywood as you discribe and the fact that you say it is comming from the front makes me think that sawdust from your cut is not clearing the blade and is in effect being rechoped to make fine airbourne dust that is then comming out from the front of the blade, maybe this could be something to do with what you describe as a sheath under the blade or something else is preventing the bulk of the dust (most of which should be to heavy to get airbourne) from exiting the saw fast enough

 

[Jensmith]

Do you replace the filters on your mask frequently? I only ask as I have one the same as yours and use mine on a more occasional basis for hobby use and I started to have problems breathing and feeling I wasn't getting enough oxygen and when I changed the filters it was fine again. I think they'd become clogged.

Have you looked at Camvac or Record Power extractors? I don't think the Charnwood brand are an industrial use vac..

You need something a bit heavier duty to clear the dust. I have a Camvac and it certainly serves me well. It's reduced the dust considerably and I produce a lot of fine dust too.

 

[Lord Kitchener]

I've been thinking about this since I read it yesterday. I also work a good deal of birch ply but fortunately do not have the same problem. I do have dust extractors (several) and they help, of course, but there is still a certain amount of airborne dust. When it gets bad I wear the Trend mask, the really big one that tends to block the view of my feet. The reason I use it is that because of the very large surface area of the filter, it is easier to suck air through it that the round cartridge type masks. If I use one of those, the effort of drawing in air rapidly makes me feel queasy.

So you really need to know exactly what is is that is causing your 'lung pain'. If it a reaction to something in the birch plywood then it sounds as if you are going to have to stop exposing yourself to it, what with pain being Mother Nature's way of getting you to stop doing something that is bad for you. If it's the mask, then maybe the Trend mask will solve/alleviate it.

 

[stable]

@ powertools

I think the problem with the saw is down to the suction not occurring for proper extraction so therefore it blasts back in my face... not nice

@Jensmith
Interesting to hear your views on the mask. I'm using high P3 filters with it - seems odd a rating can prove useless - I'll try another perhaps. I was lead to believe this was a very effective choice of mask... what do you use?

I change filters regularly - well before they have ever looked or felt clogged. It seems to operate well in function.

@ lord kitchener
Very interesting to hear you work with birch ply and haven't had any negative effects. I know I'm being told something by my body which is why I can't ignore it any longer. I'm going to have one last attempt, give it 6 months and see what I'm being told to do then.

Mask change and some decent extraction systems. Thanks for the input so far. Very helpful forum.

 

[Eric The Viking]

Use the search tool for the forum. This subject comes up a lot.

The issue with pipe size for DX is almost entirely air velocity. If you can move enough air fast enough you'll get the dust to the extractor. If you have a small pipe constricting the airflow at one end, the bulk of air in a bigger pipe won't be moving fast enough to keep the dust in suspension. Say the small pipe is 1/4 the area of the big one, if the air in the little one is doing 4m/s, the air in the big pipe can only be doing 1m/s, because the small pipe is a bottleneck.

It's a darn sight more complex than that though, and as a general rule you need to keep dust extraction runs short, and the piping as smooth and wide as practical.

Also: zero-clearance inserts, for table saws, bandsaws and even routers, make a big difference to the dust thrown up above the table/fence, as well as improving the finish where the blade exits the work.

 

[goldeneyedmonkey]

Is it worth changing the medium you work with to see if that helps, give it a month and see if you notice any difference? It may cost you a bit more, but better than paying for it with your lungs. _Dan.

 

[Jensmith]

@Jensmith
Interesting to hear your views on the mask. I'm using high P3 filters with it - seems odd a rating can prove useless - I'll try another perhaps. I was lead to believe this was a very effective choice of mask... what do you use?

I change filters regularly - well before they have ever looked or felt clogged. It seems to operate well enough.

I think I'm using the same mask as you and I don't feel like any dust is getting through. It's the P3 filters I use too. I would say it's effective and came recommended. Does get condensation after a while though. The Trend Airace I'm told doesn't.

The Trend Airace might be worth trying for you though just to see if the improved air intake helps your lungs. I would have got one myself but It was too big for the work I do.

 

[stable]

To be honest I'm already using the most expensive medium with no room to maneuver. High quality birch ply is the only thing I can use for my products. MDF is used by others but wouldn't ever want to go there.

 

[beech1948]

I'm not an expert but have worked in buildings of that size with lots of wood dust around.

1) Your 68mm trunks are just to small diameter. They don't allow enough air to be moved. You need to go to 150mm or perhaps 200mm OR EVEN LARGER.

2) You need to move more air which means more cost..maybe. Perhaps you need to gradually dedicate a Dust collector to each major machine as the cheapest way to go with 1 micron or less filters fitted. So maybe a used Axi ADE 4000/6000.

3) Consider if you can enclose the dirtiest machines in a cheaply build "room" which is pretty airtight and focus your DC on that room.

4) You should ask the manufacturers of your machines for a spec for the DC from each dirty machine and investigate why each machine is particularly dirty and is it working to manufacturers spec.

5) Consider having the parts you need sourced ready cut from somewhere else and let them have the DC hassle...you may just find this to be cheaper than your costs. You can still retain quality control and of course your health and still enjoy the assembly.

6) You need to step back and think your way out of this one. What you are doing now is not working well for you. Your health will suffer from not just dust but the worry about health issues.

7) Consider outsourcing the cutting and assembly of a significant proportion of the work to a factory which is equipped to do it.

8) I picked up that you are maybe cutting up to 20 boards at a time. Is your process a candidate for a CNC cutter which would be completely enclosed...maybe also offsite in someone else's fsctory.

Hope this helps.
Alan

 

[stable]

Thanks for your input Alan.

Several points you raised I've thought about previously. CNC is a route I've been wanting to take for a while. Regarding dust it would solve a lot of problems. Out sourcing I've also considered but would mean taking a drastically different (risky) business approach.

More than anything I think this situation has made me to consider my business as a whole. Which is a very good thing. I've had my head down for so long trying to make things work I simply haven't stood back long enough to see what I've got, where I'm going and how I'm going to survive!

 

[Eric The Viking]

Out of curiosity, do you have a web site for the speakers you make?

There are a number of smaller manufacturers out there (ATC springs to mind, locally here), and makers of flight-cases too, who must all have similar manufacturing problems. Is it worth getting in touch with some (in markets you're not competing in!), to visit and see what they're doing?

You might even find people you can collaborate with!

Cheers, E.