Dovetails fretsaw

[Michael_b]

Ah, still can't answer any questions or back up any claims. Good luck with your "superior skill." I'll stop engaging with you and learn from people who actually have something to teach me. I have a great deal to learn, but clearly not from you.

Putting the lie to my reply (in regards to no longer engaging with you), you edited the post and still didn't answer the question or back up your claim. I provided photos. Try again.

"I'd write it up differently if I repeated the exercise - several little improvements. Best of all was the "beam" hold-down which I've used a lot since, with variations. It can hold down all your drawer sides, or the cabinet 4 sides, at once and you can chisel them all without changing their position until you have to turn them all to do the other side."

 

[furnace]

Accurate dovetailing with two chops per side, no paring? There must be details to your technique that have been excluded here--for example, are you making a large number of cuts through the waste with your dovetail saw so that there's very little waste left to remove? What are the details of your technique?

Fiddling about with the fretsaw? How about grabbing the fretsaw, tightening the tensioning screw, and just sawing? I don't see that as "fiddling about" but perhaps I'm missing something.

When I use a fretsaw to cut out the waste, I use coarse/fast blades (Olson PGT 8 TPI skip reverse tooth) and go just a little shy of the baseline, making for a fast fret saw cut and easy/fast paring or chopping of the remaining waste. A quick example in pine is shown in the attached images. An expensive fretsaw is not necessary for what I consider to be a reasonable level of accuracy. The only fretsaw with which I have experience is pictured here and therefore I cannot comment on the comparison to any other options out there.

The single fretsaw cut shown here took about as much time as each of the dovetail saw cuts. Seems reasonably fast to me.

I found this a good modification to my fretsaw

I can't afford the Knew coping saw but wanted greater tension in my Eclipse's blade. I bought a bottle screw for about a pound and modified the ends to fit around the frame. Rotating the centre portion spreads the ends apart exerting increased tension on the blade. The throat capacity is constrained, but for my purposes (dovetail waste) it works really well and is far more accurate and controllable
Not sure the Chinese will want to copy it.....

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

If you want real time use of the KC fretsaw, here is a video I made a while back:



Also, some history about its development: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/KnewConceptsFretsaw.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Jacob]

My objective was to work out how to produce "ordinary" hand made stuff efficiently, which basically means freehand DTs, no fret saws, careful procedure and speed wherever possible.
Derek's fine work is a different thing altogether, but I would argue that if you can establish an efficient basic method you can then proceed to refine this as far as you like, e.g. more precise layout with dividers, marking up the DT angles, and so on.
I'd probably still pass on the fret saw though, as it is slower. Also I see no sign of it having been used in older work - you'd expect to find a mark in the wrong place or some other clue.

 

[John Brown]

What's that quote? Something about wrestling with a pig?

Not that I haven't been guilty of wrestling with pigs...

 

[Blackswanwood]

My recommendation to anyone unsure which route to take would be to try removing the waste with a fretsaw and then repeat the exercise with a chisel. Based on the experience then adopt which of the methods you find the easiest, best, most fulfilling etc.

It’s really no different to sharpening …

 

[Jacob]

My recommendation to anyone unsure which route to take would be to try removing the waste with a fretsaw and then repeat the exercise with a chisel. Based on the experience then adopt which of the methods you find the easiest, best, most fulfilling etc.

It’s really no different to sharpening …

Well of course do it how you like but I was looking for most likely trad practice, having looked at a lot of DTs when either repairing or scrapping old furniture.
Useful to know.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Speaking for myself - and others - as an amateur, ultimate speed is of little concern. My speed is actually pretty good. But what is more important is, several years from now, I want to be able to look at the work done and not have regrets that I took some short cuts in order to gain a minute or two.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Michael_b]

My recommendation to anyone unsure which route to take would be to try removing the waste with a fretsaw and then repeat the exercise with a chisel. Based on the experience then adopt which of the methods you find the easiest, best, most fulfilling etc.

It’s really no different to sharpening …

I agree that each woodworker should develop a preference based on experience. I have no dog in the fight with regards to anyone's preference. I, for example, have a context-sensitive preference. I use the fretsaw when I want to be fast, but I prefer using a chisel whenever I have some extra time based on the lack of dust. For me, the chisel is noticeably slower: part of this is that I use coarse/fast fretsaw blades--fewer TPI than my dovetail saw: 8 TPI skip tooth fretsaw blades versus a 16 TPI dovetail saw.

Claims regarding speed, on the other hand, must be able to be validated with some kind of evidence. Proclamations that greatly disagree with one's own experience must be considered invalid unless proven otherwise. I have sufficient experience with use of a chisel to remove dovetail waste to remain extremely doubtful of any claims regarding the use of two chisel chops per side and done (for anything other than, say, veneer-type thickness) with no use of any saw other than to cut to/beyond the baseline on each side. With no demonstration thereof, I simply do not believe the claim--my experience says it's a rather extreme version of hyperbole (and therefore completely unhelpful to anyone attempting to learn from experienced hand tool woodworkers), but I'm happy to be proven wrong.

If I can actually learn a method by which one can--in a typical stock thickness for the carcase of a chest of drawers, for example--cut out dovetail waste with two chisel chops per side of the board, I would be extremely interested to learn. I do not at this point actually believe that such a technique exists--by an order of magnitude. Again, for emphasis: hyperbole--particularly resorting to extremes thereof--is entirely unhelpful to anyone seeking guidance.

On the subject of a lack of historical fretsaw use for removal of dovetail waste, a relevant question might be: when did mass-produced and inexpensive fretsaw blades become available? Before this point, would the employer have needed to pay a worker to make a blade before using it, and if so how long would it have taken and would it have been a net time (and, in particular, cost) savings compared to having the workers simply use chisels? Faster is a question of everything all put together: my experience says the per-dovetail time is faster with a coarse fretsaw, but prior to the availability of mass-produced fretsaw blades would the time/expense of making/purchasing the blade have outweighed the savings? I don't have the answers to these questions--likely someone does.

I do know that I am faster with dovetailing when using a coarse/fast fretsaw, and I also know that I prefer to use the chisel if I'm not in a hurry. Further, I know that it takes me more than two chops per side if I am only using a chisel to remove waste and I am targeting precision. For example, see the attached image--saw cuts on the sides and chiseling out the waste (certainly more than two chops per side, though I did not actually count the number of chops) in pine.

 

[Michael_b]

Speaking for myself - and others - as an amateur, ultimate speed is of little concern. My speed is actually pretty good. But what is more important is, several years from now, I want to be able to look at the work done and not have regrets that I took some short cuts in order to gain a minute or two.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Well said. Thanks, Derek.

 

[Jacob]

Take all the time you want!
I have looked at a lot of old stuff. Some very tidy some less so. DTs weren't there to be looked at and their appearance often has little to do with the overall quality of the piece. Making a show of them is a very modern trend.*
All I'm doing, for my own satisfaction, is trying to work out how they managed to churn out "ordinary" stuff at a reasonable rate.
I think this inevitably means free hand sawing, drawer sides in pairs, no fret saw (IMHO) but careful layout of the workpieces so that all the DTs be cut on one side can without moving anything, then turned and ditto. I reckon sitting down too, as you need to move little and it's a long repetitive job. Could be 100+ DTs in a chest of drawers - could they do that in a day?
*PS in fact DTs were more often concealed, covered with a moulding or other design feature. Carcasses not drawers - though even there they are out of sight when the drawer is closed. Sometimes you can only get a clue by taking out the drawers and shining a bright light over the carcass joint on the inside where there may be some ends of saw marks still showing.
DTs would be most visible on cheap work - utilitarian boxes etc.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

I am coming in quite late on this thread, but I would like to add - again in my work as an amateur, which cannot be equated to Jacob's work as a professional - that whether fretsawing or chopping the waste, it is advisable that some thought is given to what is needed to achieve a good joinery fit. I am far more concerned with producing the best I can than the most .... but I do not do this for a living (and would not dream of telling Jacob how to do his work). I have the luxury of no deadline. This is my process.

After sawing, deepen the lines between the pins (for example), and then undercut to create a chisel wall ...

Next, fretsaw as close to the line as possible. This is what I demonstrated in the video.

You are leaving as little waste to remove as possible.

The advantage of this is that, together with the chisel wall preventing the chisel moving back over the baseline, there will be far less damage done to the chisel bevel and far less bruising of the baseline.

Try and take 1mm parings ...

The result is clean work to the lines - which is what woodworking is all about.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Michael_b]

I am coming in quite late on this thread, but I would like to add - again in my work as an amateur, which cannot be equated to Jacob's work as a professional - that whether fretsawing or chopping the waste, it is advisable that some thought is given to what is needed to achieve a good joinery fit. I am far more concerned with producing the best I can than the most .... but I do not do this for a living (and would not dream of telling Jacob how to do his work). I have the luxury of no deadline. This is my process.

After sawing, deepen the lines between the pins (for example), and then undercut to create a chisel wall ...

Next, fretsaw as close to the line as possible. This is what I demonstrated in the video.

You are leaving as little waste to remove as possible.

The advantage of this is that, together with the chisel wall preventing the chisel moving back over the baseline, there will be far less damage done to the chisel bevel and far less bruising of the baseline.

Try and take 1mm parings ...

The result is clean work to the lines - which is what woodworking is all about.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks for the details, Derek; your work is always informative and inspiring; the photos are always helpful as well. You are certainly one of those to whom I was referring when I mentioned that there are those who have a great deal to teach me. I always have much more to learn. Thank you, again, for your willingness to teach.

It's entirely understandable that a professional would be highly motivated to use the most money-efficient (fastest, generally) method. I, too, have no intention of telling Jacob how to do his work, but I would like to see him actually answer questions about how he does so and perhaps teach the rest of us how to work more efficiently. Apparently, these are trade secrets and one's queries are at best not worthy of a response (but somehow are worth taking the time to build tangential strawmen as a distraction). I am curious regarding your thoughts on relative speed of fretsaw versus chiseling the waste (when the fretsaw is appropriate, as in half-blind or through dovetails): which is faster for you?

 

[Jacob]

..... but I would like to see him actually answer questions about how he does so and perhaps teach the rest of us how to work more efficiently.

I have no desire to tell you how to work more efficiently, I really couldn't care less. I'm just talking about what I do and why.

Apparently, these are trade secrets and one's queries are at best not worthy of a response....

Your childish and sarcastic tone is really tedious. You've obviously missed the whole point; that I've been trying to find out how these things were done, by the trade, secret or not, and I wrote a great rambling thread about it, for all to see and be rude about. See link in earlier post.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

. I am curious regarding your thoughts on relative speed of fretsaw versus chiseling the waste (when the fretsaw is appropriate, as in half-blind or through dovetails): which is faster for you?

Hi Michael

In half-blind dovetails, the waste is removed with either a router or a chisel. A fretsaw cannot be used.

I have experimented with a trim router to remove pin waste. It certainly can be quite quick, especially if you have many drawers to do. However, it is exhausting as the slightest slip will be disaster. Problems happen faster with power tools.

My preference is to split out the waste from the sockets. I have a full article on the method here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/UnderbenchCabinet14.html

The main elements for the sockets are:

1. Saw the pins and then deepen the kerfs ….



2. Create a chisel wall at the baseline …



3. Chop the baseline. The chisel wall keeps it steady ..



4. Split out a shallow layer …



5. Keep chopping and splitting out …



6. Turn the board around and remove thin slices to the upper baseline …



Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Michael_b]

Hi Michael

In half-blind dovetails, the waste is removed with either a router or a chisel. A fretsaw cannot be used.

I have experimented with a trim router to remove pin waste. It certainly can be quite quick, especially if you have many drawers to do. However, it is exhausting as the slightest slip will be disaster. Problems happen faster with power tools.

My preference is to split out the waste from the sockets. I have a full article on the method here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/UnderbenchCabinet14.html

The main elements for the sockets are:

1. Saw the pins and then deepen the kerfs ….



2. Create a chisel wall at the baseline …



3. Chop the baseline. The chisel wall keeps it steady ..



4. Split out a shallow layer …



5. Keep chopping and splitting out …



6. Turn the board around and remove thin slices to the upper baseline …



Regards from Perth

Derek

Thank you, Derek. Once again, I appreciate your willingness to teach.

 

[Michael_b]

I have no desire to tell you how to work more efficiently, I really couldn't care less. I'm just talking about what I do and why.

Your childish and sarcastic tone is really tedious. You've obviously missed the whole point; that I've been trying to find out how these things were done, by the trade, secret or not, and I wrote a great rambling thread about it, for all to see and be rude about. See link in earlier post.

Ad hominem attacks in lieu of answering questions or supporting claims do not enhance one's credibility.

 

[Jacob]

Ignore button pressed!

 

[thetyreman]

I agree with derek, I'm mainly interested in the quality of work (not speed), I can cut dovetails surprisingly fast thesedays, I spend just as much time prepping the wood and making sure it's dead square and flat.

 

[Jacob]

I agree with derek, I'm mainly interested in the quality of work (not speed), I can cut dovetails surprisingly fast thesedays, I spend just as much time prepping the wood and making sure it's dead square and flat.

I'm interested in the compromise between quality and speed i.e fast but good enough.
Sometimes perfectionism can just look over-worked and it does take longer.