Dovetail marking out

[Corneel]

Jacob sure has a point. In the ages of the handtools, they didn't fret about leaving markings on the pieces. For example carvings from the 17th century are full of scratch lines, compass pinholes, even the nailholes securing the board on the workbench are often still to see. Peter Follansbee has researched and published bout these things. Later in the 18th century everything became a bit more "civilised" but you would still see marking lines on drawers or inside rails and styles. Everything was done by eye and from a skilled, unguided, hand. All the agony over perfection is more a machine age thing.

Now, we do live in a modern age, so I guess there is nothing wrong with agonising over these things today. At the other hand, handtool workers are reliving a bit of the past, so why not use the antique work ethics too?

 

[NickWelford]

I detest scribing lines. Just feels like the piece is unfinished.

 

[Jacob]

......, so why not use the antique work ethics too?

It wasn't an "ethic" it was more about efficiency, optimisation, value for money.

Ethics is about how you deal with people, not about how you make furniture.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

That's being a little pedantic, speaking to a non native English speaker. We knew what he meant.

 

[Jacob]

Yes but you do get a lot of vaguely moralistic chat about how to do things - the "correct" way etc. And there's a big element of moralistic self-righteousness with Arts n Crafts fans.

 

[woodbrains]

Jig made Half blinds are easier to spot, because they can never have needle pins like hand made London pattern ones.

That's almost correct, but there is a significant loophole. On a Leigh Dovetail Jig you can cut the pin board first (half lap or through, makes no difference) with the finest of needle pins, you then do a manual transfer from the pin board to the tail board and cut the tails by hand. Visually it's absolutely identical to a hand cut dovetail, but you save maybe 30% or 40% of the time taken on each drawer and there's a bit less skill/risk involved. I've done it when I've had a lot of dovetailing on a job, say a six or eight drawer chest, anything less than that and the set up time for the Leigh Jig negates much of the advantage.

On the scribing question, for what it's worth the policy at the Edward Barnsley Workshop is no scribe lines, ever, not even for the through dovetails at the back of the drawer. I always thought that was bit odd as the Barnsley way in drawer construction is to build the drawer with the sides about 0.5mm proud of the front, which you then plane off, so you'd remove any scribe marks at that stage. Still, workshop rules are workshop rules and who am I to argue.

Hello,

that is true, you can cut the pins fine on the Leigh jig and use them to mark out the tails to be hand cut. A sort of semi machine semi hand operation. Leigh actually shows this in their literature. I wonder if this means you are entitled to scribe half the joint, to show which bit is hand done? i have Leigh jig, but never done this, I wonder how many people do it. I know many who use a router freehand to remove the bulk of the waste between the sawn pins, to speed things up, too.

Mike.

 

[Corneel]

Thanks for pointing that out Jacob
Ethics is too big a word indeed. More like a state of mind, or a habbit or whatever. They just weren't concerned with things like this. If they were concerned about the esthetics of a piece (instead of just being concerned about staying alife), it would be about the design, not how the actual piece was put together. That was normal day to day craftsmanship. If they had a drawing to work from it would have some general proportions and ideas how the thing should look like.

 

[JimF.]

The beauty of doing it yourself is that if you want knife marks you can have them. Or not.
Whatever floats your boat.

 

[woodbrains]

The point about the so-called London Pattern (or "single kerf") DT is that it's actually the easiest (and hence cheapest) hand made way. It features, done almost (i.e. by eye) perfectly on top quality work, and less perfectly on cheaper work.
Barnsley (and for that matter Morris and the whole movement) were essentially amateurs inventing a whole set of rules about how things "should" be done, often ignoring how things were done by people who had to do it for a living i.e. the trade.
So, yes a "bit odd"
What they had in common was that no serious maker would ever oeuf about with DT angle gauges and considerations of 1/8 or 1/6 - strictly for the world of magazine reading amateurs.

Hello,

As usual, Claptrap!

Where on earth did you dream up that Arts and Crafts makers were amateur? Ernest Gimson, Peter Waals,
both Barnsleys and those in their employ were highly skilled, trained craftsmen, who worked bloody hard. Do you think any effete amateur could produce this?

I think you just spot this nonsense to provoke reaction, really, so get real.

 

[Jacob]

The point about the so-called London Pattern (or "single kerf") DT is that it's actually the easiest (and hence cheapest) hand made way. It features, done almost (i.e. by eye) perfectly on top quality work, and less perfectly on cheaper work.
Barnsley (and for that matter Morris and the whole movement) were essentially amateurs inventing a whole set of rules about how things "should" be done, often ignoring how things were done by people who had to do it for a living i.e. the trade.
So, yes a "bit odd"
What they had in common was that no serious maker would ever oeuf about with DT angle gauges and considerations of 1/8 or 1/6 - strictly for the world of magazine reading amateurs.

Hello,

As usual, Claptrap!

Where on earth did you dream up that Arts and Crafts makers were amateur? Ernest Gimson, Peter Waals,
both Barnsleys and those in their employ were highly skilled, trained craftsmen, who worked bloody hard. Do you think any effete amateur could produce this?



I think you just spot this nonsense to provoke reaction, really, so get real.

They were largely "gentry" and not from the trade. Gimson and the Barnsleys were wealthy architects/builders first. As with Morris they re-invented "traditional" craftwork in a romantic and exclusive manner of their own - not derived from the vernacular trade or the industry. A bit of a dead end in many ways and producing very fussy and expensive stuff like your sideboard above. Their imitators are still with us and still not really going anywhere.

The Bauhaus on the other hand was inclusive and open to all sorts of influences including industry and became the most influential institution of the modern movement.

 

[Zeddedhed]

Surely the difference between professional and amateur is all about if what they do is their profession or not.
I am a professional carpenter/joiner because I earn my living from carpentry and joinery.
It would be fair to assume that I am better at carpentry and joinery than a Lawyer for example, but it may not be the case.
I could be crap at what I do and I make a living because I'm a good blagger, etc etc.
We all know professionals (using the definition above) who are utterly useless at what they do.
I'm sure that most of us know people who excel at something other than their profession.
Having seen the quality of some of the work posted on these forums I know that there are many out there for whom woodworking is not their profession but who are working to an exceptionally high level.
So yes, a gifted enthusiast/amateur/weekend warrior could just as easily make a beautiful piece of furniture as a professional.
In other words being good at something doesn't make you a professional, and being a professional doesn't mean you're any good.

Aaaand breeeaaathe.......

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

It is funny that someone can (personal preference of taste aside) decry the Arts and Crafts makers, who were craftsmen that actually stood at benches and made stuff, but praise the Bauhaus design movement, which was largely interested in not making stuff traditionally, but designing things for industrialised machine manufacture. One rooted in tradition and still exists to an extent today, the other lasting about 13 years IIRC. This person at the same time tells us about how trad this and trad that was done and how we should not be evolving our methods beyond what was done before. Then he will tell us we are moralising when we talk of the evolution of modern furniture making. The Cotswold school Arts and Crafts makers were by no stretch of the definition, amateur, neither the designers nor the fine craftsmen.

Incidentally, London pattern dovetails require the same number of sawcuts as any other half blinds, so are no quicker or easier to do. In fact they need a lot more waste chopping from between the pins, so may take a bit longer. I don't know where the idea that they are more economical to do could possibly come from, it is an aesthetic choice.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

Hello,

It is funny that someone can (personal preference of taste aside) decry the Arts and Crafts makers, who were craftsmen that actually stood at benches and made stuff, but praise the Bauhaus design movement, which was largely interested in not making stuff traditionally, but designing things for industrialised machine manufacture.

No they were interested across the spectrum trying to bring together architecture, arts, crafts, music, industry etc.

One rooted in tradition and still exists to an extent today,

They made up their own set of "traditions" and were somewhat blind to stuff outside, particularly industry

the other lasting about 13 years IIRC.

But with a deep influence on modern design worldwide, to this day

....... and how we should not be evolving our methods beyond what was done before.

Not me squire - evolve as much as you like but don't throw babies out with the bath water

Then he will tell us we are moralising when we talk of the evolution of modern furniture making.

Arts n crafts hasn't evolved much - pretty static by and large. And they do moralise :roll: .
It gets copied a lot and is easy to spot.

The Cotswold school Arts and Crafts makers were by no stretch of the definition, amateur, neither the designers nor the fine craftsmen.

Their origin was amateur in the sense of being from outside the trade. Obviously they were pretty good at it

Incidentally, London pattern dovetails require the same number of sawcuts as any other half blinds, so are no quicker or easier to do. In fact they need a lot more waste chopping from between the pins, so may take a bit longer. I don't know where the idea that they are more economical to do could possibly come from, it is an aesthetic choice.

Mike.

They are easier because you can very quickly space by eye and cut the single starter kerf and the second kerf drops tidily into it. It's a natural if you are doing it freehand. That's why they are so common - nothing to do with aesthetics except coincidentally.
I got the idea by doing it a lot of them and thinking about it.

woodbrain if you want to know a bit about design history there are some excellent books, ignorance is no excuse nowadays!
This is a good one here.
One of my favourites is "1000 chairs" (Taschen).
Don't bother with a similarly titled "500 chairs" which is tedious in parts being mostly post-modern arts n crafts decorative etc.

Nobody should miss "Welsh Furniture 1250-1950" Richard Bebb; an eye opener to the richness and diversity of trad design - making arts n crafts look pretty feeble in comparison
"Irish Country Furniture" by Claudia Kinmonth is also excellent and one of my favourites

 

[charlibalv]

I don't think you would call Edward Barnsley an amature, one of the pre-eminent arts and crafts makers. He was born into a family of furiture makers and the workshop he set up with his uncle Ernest Gimson is still going today.