Domino or Jessem's creation.....

[Spectric]

So the tool is too heavy for you and that means it's a bad tool?

Did I say that, it is just a fact of life that the heavier a tool then the more unwieldly it becomes, maybe I do need to get the one I have checked out but then why is it fine with the DAJ and with that I use my Sennaca adaptor to use the 500 cutters.

 

[Nelsun]

I think I've mentioned this before but, if you're having horizontal alignment issues when using the top down cursor but not the paddles, then your cursor is likely requiring calibration - Calibrating the Festool Domino Cursor

Perhaps, if yours was picked up second hand, there's a reason for the previous owner selling it on? When the cursor is calibrated, I've found it to be plenty accurate for working on the tight setting, a 0.5mm pencil line and marching quickly across whatever with minimal care. That's with two 700s and a 500 all dead on out of the box.

The sloppy setting, besides speeding up banging in mortices with one eye shut, does have other useful uses too e.g. it can be used for breadboard ends (extremely quickly at that!) along with making much large mortices a lot quicker. I'm sure there's more and I would rather have the option than not.

I'd also say that the DAJ, to me, is a lot of money for something I've never had the need for; the domino has always been quick and accurate enough. Were I a massive cabinet shop where every second is worth plonking down the money for it, then fill your boots. IMHO, it's certainly not in any way proof of inaccuracy as I've managed just fine without it for 7+ years.

 

[johnnyb]

I also have alignment issues. it may be a dodgy tool but I've always thought the alignment on a 70mm plunge taking 14mm out causes problems. the bearing surfaces are small the machine heavy and the plunge deep. any misalignment is multiplied when the ends are 140mm apart. I'd love to try a good un tbh just to see. maybe ours are dodgy somehow

 

[frankendoodle65]

I also have alignment issues. it may be a dodgy tool but I've always thought the alignment on a 70mm plunge taking 14mm out causes problems. the bearing surfaces are small the machine heavy and the plunge deep. any misalignment is multiplied when the ends are 140mm apart. I'd love to try a good un tbh just to see. maybe ours are dodgy somehow

Are you thinking it's plunging at a slight angle? I've definitely had that with my smaller df500 but it was entirely down to user error on my part. Now I always check quickly that the fence is sat dead flat on the workpiece - a quick glance at the side should be enough.
Have you checked the fence is square to the tool body? Easy to check with an engineers square.
Most importantly take your time and plunge slowly. Also worth considering your posture - if the workpiece is too high or low it'll be difficult to plunge straight.
If all of that and still no luck then maybe you have a duff tool, they do happen! So far I've not had that issue with my DF700, I've not used it a lot yet but that test piece in my last post came together perfectly - I'll try something similar with 14x140 Dominos when I get a chance.


@Spectric we'll agree to disagree, I can't personally see the issue you're talking about and I'm not alone here, maybe you've got a duff tool or you're doing something differently to me. There's always the sloppy setting if you need it though

 

[paulrbarnard]

Next comes the obvious.... there are posts on here from people who have to justify their purchases to their owner but really speaking, they could just kit out in festool and demonstrate that the tools wont devalue......

Yes nice theory….

 

[johnnyb]

I swear sometimes it's canting the domino a tiny bit(essentially it's error is doubled) also there is play in the ball bearing that sets the fence parallel to the plunge. I never have problems with the 500 as it's plunge is small and a bit of error is lost. when I've got hundreds of pounds worth of time and timber riding on an accurate job it can really disappoint.
I may just send it back to festool.see what they say.

 

[Doug71]

I swear sometimes it's canting the domino a tiny bit(essentially it's error is doubled) also there is play in the ball bearing that sets the fence parallel to the plunge. I never have problems with the 500 as it's plunge is small and a bit of error is lost. when I've got hundreds of pounds worth of time and timber riding on an accurate job it can really disappoint.
I may just send it back to festool.see what they say.

My domino machines are the other way around!

On my 700 the bearing that sets the fence parallel is spot on but on my 500 there is a bit of play and I have to lift the fence a minute amount for it to be parallel. I have had the 500 since they were first released and it has put in about 10,000,000 dominos (might be a slight exaggeration) so it could just be wear and tear.

 

[baldkev]

@Spectric , do you have any long lengths of domino?
im wondering if you can do a few plunges, insert a 10" long domino and then check the tenon for square and parallel against the workpiece?
You might have already done that

 

[Spectric]

Are you thinking it's plunging at a slight angle?

For me the plunge is square to the domino fence, but I can see the issue @johnnyb is mentioning that a 70mm plunge on each side giving a 140mm domino length does not take much error for problems to arise but for me this would be down to operator error and not my fence.

I don't have any long lengths of domino but have used tight fitting square bar in the oblong hole to check squareness and using the fence I found most were ok but using it from the base gave perfect results which again highlights operator error and what I said about it being heavier and more bulky.

Once I get one of those Ola C type benches knocked up I will run another series of test and maybe get to the bottom of the issues.

when I've got hundreds of pounds worth of time and timber riding on an accurate job it can really disappoint.

That is a huge part of any tool in that you must have confidence in it to deliver, it only takes a few bad results and your confidence takes a knock so you reach out to a tool you know delivers.

 

[Samkilby]

There are things you can do to speed up both marking out whilst increasing accuracy, and increase the strength of the joint when using medium slip setting (on only one side of the joint)
Use a rod board for marking, no measuring required. Just cut a bit of offcut the same size as whatever face you intend to join. Or reference off side plate of machine, or in some instances make a little template from offcut (the same as if you were installing shelves in a carcasse and screwing/glueing them in) but instead you could ref the side plate of the machine against that. Or if installing shelves or centre divides, run the machine at 90 degrees to the work, with the base plate referencing off it. Again rod board for marking.

With regards sloppy settings - I tend to use medium slop one side, particularly on sheet goods. When learning mortise and tenon joinery cut by hand, my instructor (who was brilliant) said that some vertical slop is acceptable and even sometimes preferable, as long as the cheeks of the tenon were a good fit. This is due to during glue ups, a bit of wiggle can help if you need to pull one way on the clamps to avoid rack etc, particularly with people who aren’t cutting tenons by hand every week.. this still produces a very strong joint. Glue area is sufficient, and the shoulders of the tenon actually provide most of the strength really, so if they are good.. Also how the joint is usually employed, it is needed for most alignment and strength in this orientation.

If concerned use pu glue, jowat is the best I have used. Tape off the joint though with plasticy tape first as it fizzes out and is a bigger to clean off !

Even with all the above considered, the domino should be considered a pretty decent alignment tool that is a quick option, I wouldn’t personally use it for anything requiring massive strength (but for drawers, cabinet doors, face frames, stretchers or rails on cabinetry but probably not dining tables, carcassing etc it should work fine)

Setting up a morticer accurately takes a fairly long time. Even in a workshop with decent kit, as the morticer tends to gather dust most of the time and needs a lot of work. As does cutting tenons. Not to discount them, just saying

Also incidentally whilst I’m a full time cabinetmaker, in my work life, in my home workshop I don’t have a festool, wouldn’t buy one of the router jig thingies and I use a cheap Chinese dowelmax knock off. I would possibly consider the Peter Millard domino jig, but haven’t had any real need for it tbh.


Anyway my thoughts

 

[simonh]

Does that black fence flip so it can be used on either side ? Who makes that black fence please .

I am looking at making a bigger version to handle larger frames and currently I am still thinking about the height adjustment, do I lower the workpiece or raise the cutter but will post more once I get there.

Yes, the black adjustable square flips. I CNC machined it on my Nomad. It is overkill for most uses, and simply making a 90/45, and other angles as needed would probably be a lot less work than it took to make. I like a challenge

I went with fixed shims as my main use is for small pieces where using the Domino fence is awkward. Fixed shims were more easily repeatable than having a moving part.

 

[Spectric]

Maybe when we start a CNC forum you could post some pictures and provide a little info on Nomad as I am sure it will be of interest to many. What is the board you used for you domino jig, is it a laminated board as it looks very professional.

 

[Spectric]

but I've always thought the alignment on a 70mm plunge taking 14mm out causes problems.

This can be worse than you initially think. The only correct way is both 70mm plunges in square to the face, but if there is any tilt then you get several possibilities as they might both tilt in the same plane or both tilt in opposite planes. This will be less evident on a 500 with less plunge and so the 700 just magnifies this problem and must require better operator usage to not introduce the problem.

 

[Jar944]

I don't use the domino very often but it's nice to have. Can't say I've had issues working off pencil lines using tight domino's.

 

[Nic Rhodes]

Read this with interest with everyone having more Domino experience than me, I am not an owner of a Domino (though not ruled out) but do use other Festool equipment for 15 or so years now as part of a well equipped workshop. I am an engineer working for a large company specialising in precision one offs in what I do in technical / R and D so I am not running blind here. I am currently trying Peter Millard loose 'Festool tenons' (recommended) at home and still eye up a new Chinese dowel jig care of Hooked on Wood. I ran a test at Festool promo event (50mm Sapele board, old and stable) with Domino making a mini work bench from three boards. Nice tight fitting and accurate. Very easy to use equipment and a perfect fit to my other kit. I was impressed. Went home for lunch and tried the boards again after lunch. Now I understand the loose setting is for engineered boards more than hard wood use. After lunch the Festool tenons no longer fitted. Miles off. This was down to wood movement. Now I know movement is most at 90 degrees to the loose tenon directions but lunchtime (car journey and new environment) was enough to stop the tight fitting working.....a real eye opener for me. It certainly didn't put me off Domino or why they have a 'slack' setting, Festool knew what they were doing. As an engineer I like precision however I underestimated wood again despite working with it for a lifetime as an amateur and with over 325 different species here. Learning point....I ignored what I knew in favour of my 'views' on precision I welcome these new loose tenon jigs.

 

[Jar944]

Read this with interest with everyone having more Domino experience than me, I am not an owner of a Domino (though not ruled out) but do use other Festool equipment for 15 or so years now as part of a well equipped workshop. I am an engineer working for a large company specialising in precision one offs in what I do in technical / R and D so I am not running blind here. I am currently trying Peter Millard loose 'Festool tenons' (recommended) at home and still eye up a new Chinese dowel jig care of Hooked on Wood. I ran a test at Festool promo event (50mm Sapele board, old and stable) with Domino making a mini work bench from three boards. Nice tight fitting and accurate. Very easy to use equipment and a perfect fit to my other kit. I was impressed. Went home for lunch and tried the boards again after lunch. Now I understand the loose setting is for engineered boards more than hard wood use. After lunch the Festool tenons no longer fitted. Miles off. This was down to wood movement. Now I know movement is most at 90 degrees to the loose tenon directions but lunchtime (car journey and new environment) was enough to stop the tight fitting working.....a real eye opener for me. It certainly didn't put me off Domino or why they have a 'slack' setting, Festool knew what they were doing. As an engineer I like precision however I underestimated wood again despite working with it for a lifetime as an amateur and with over 325 different species here. Learning point....I ignored what I knew in favour of my 'views' on precision I welcome these new loose tenon jigs.

You can use the woods natural movement to your advantage. If you make your own loose tenons slightly oversized (when at the equilibrium moisture content) they can be made slightly undersized by drying them beyond normal. It's the similar concept of differential movement like that of Windsor chair making. Once everything reaches equilibrium its a interfere fit and more likely to stay together.

A microwave works reasonably fast at shrinking loose tenons.

 

[MikeK]

...After lunch the Festool tenons no longer fitted. Miles off. This was down to wood movement...

I can't speak for everyone, but when I use Dominos (on almost every project), they are for immediate assembly and gluing. I can't think of any situation in my project workflow that would require cutting the mortises in my shop and assembling the components later in a different location.

 

[frankendoodle65]

I can't speak for everyone, but when I use Dominos (on almost every project), they are for immediate assembly and gluing. I can't think of any situation in my project workflow that would require cutting the mortises in my shop and assembling the components later in a different location.

It's handy for cabinet construction/installation - for a large wardrobe carcass it's easy to machine and dry fit in the workshop, then flatpack to deliver to the customer. Reassemble, glue and screw in situ.
Obviously movement is less of an issue with plywood or MDF so it's not usually a problem, I can't see many instances where you'd do similar with solid wood apart from a bed frame.

 

[Distinterior]

It's handy for cabinet construction/installation - for a large wardrobe carcass it's easy to machine and dry fit in the workshop, then flatpack to deliver to the customer. Reassemble, glue and screw in situ.
Obviously movement is less of an issue with plywood or MDF so it's not usually a problem, I can't see many instances where you'd do similar with solid wood apart from a bed frame.

That is exactly what I did on this set of built in walk in wardrobes that I made & fitted.....Each of the wardrobes were fairly large & heavy, so I assembled each of them in the bedroom and then used a sack barrow to get them into the smaller room/ walk in wardrobe.

All the panels were 18mm Egger MFC and Dominoed together.

 

[Spectric]

I can't speak for everyone, but when I use Dominos (on almost every project), they are for immediate assembly and gluing.

That also applies to dowels, my reasoning is that whilst everything is fresh in the mind then getting the correct assembly is easier than leaving it and coming back later and having to pick the job up again.