Does this table design look strong enough?

[doctor Bob]

45mm is a very thick table top. 25mm would be plenty in any timber, or ply.
You don't need those corner braces but a central bearer across the middle would be good.
Bottom of aprons want to be as low - so if you are sitting at the table on a normal chair 18" high, then 23" clearance needed from floor to bottom of apron.
Given height of 30", take off 25mm for top thickness, leaves you with 6' for apron width.
That flush edge to the top is unattractive and pointless, I'd make the top project 2" or more all round, even further at the ends

20 years, bound to happen eventually, but I agree with Jacob

 

[Inspector]

Since it is a working table sticking to the heavier legs and apron is the smarter way to go.

My tables, four of different sizes, use only the hanger bolts in the corners but there is a lower shelf also made the same way. The legs are 1 3/4" square. They were made so we could take them apart to haul to shows where my wife sold the pens she made. My father made Danish Modern furniture when I was a kid and that's how he made the leg to apron joints for coffee and dining room tables. The dining room tables didn't have and lower shelves or stretchers naturally. None of them were wobbly. My tables were made with ones in his factory when it closed.

Jameshow my apologies. I didn't realize the Coach Screw/Bolt was the same as a Hanger Bolt.

Grantx with the table being as big as it is you'll need bigger hanger bolts than I used. I looked and found a number of places this side of the pond with some pretty big ones so I'm sure you can find them in your area. With a 150mm skirt you could fit two per corner as long as you pre-drill the holes to reduce the chance of splitting. They will let you take the table into the bakery in pieces. Easier to handle especially if alone.
https://www.nutty.com/bolts/hanger-bolts/
Unless the bakers want the top and apron flush I would overhang the top a few inches all around. Spilled stuff is less likely to run down the aprons and legs making for easier cleaning. If flush when you make it and the top shrinks in the warm kitchen it won't end up smaller than the base.

Pete

 

[Inspector]

20 years, bound to happen eventually, but I agree with Jacob

If the discussion was about a dining room table I would be in agreement too. However this table is a stand up work table in a bakery where they probably be kneading dough etc. It needs to be heavier. Pun.

Pete

 

[dzj]

At ~95cm high, I'm guessing there won't be any seating around the table.
You might as well put some stretchers at the base of the table. Perhaps a "H" stretcher.

 

[recipio]

Beech can be a bit unstable otherwise I'd suggest making the whole thing in beech. For the top using biscuits to edge join is a help and always register the depth with the fence and not the base of the joiner - to prevent misalignment.

 

[Jacob]

At ~95cm high, I'm guessing there won't be any seating around the table.
You might as well put some stretchers at the base of the table. Perhaps a "H" stretcher.

950mm is high for kneading. 750 to 800mm generally recommended.
We had an IKEA kitchen fitted here, for speed, (supposedly temporary until the day I replace with lovely hand-made, or bought-in trad furniture, some hopes! ).
Worktops all 36"- too high, if I'd thought about it I'd have stuck to 30", with just the Cooker at 36"

 

[Grantx]

I gave the option of an overhang but the flush sides were chosen.

45mm table top thickness is the minimum the baker wanted.

@Jacob those corner braces .... if I don't use them then where does resistance to lateral forces come from? Will the lateral force of kneeding be concentrated at the table leg joint ie. I would need to mortice and tenon those joints?

 

[Jacob]

I gave the option of an overhang but the flush sides were chosen.
View attachment 128947
45mm table top thickness is the minimum the baker wanted.

@Jacob those corner braces .... if I don't use them then where does resistance to lateral forces come from? Will the lateral force of kneeding be concentrated at the table leg joint ie. I would need to mortice and tenon those joints?

They wouldn't resist lateral forces in the slightest.
For this braces would need to be from leg to apron in the vertical plane, not horizontal.
But in fact for most purposes a properly made and sized M&T at each corner, with as deep as possible aprons, would do it.
Re overhang - you need to tell your client he is wrong. He won't like it but if you just do what you are told you'll get the blame anyway!

 

[Sgian Dubh]

I gave the option of an overhang but the flush sides were chosen.

Flush sides most definitely is not an option. The top will expand and shrink as it adsorbs and desorbs water, so the edge of the table top won't remain flush with the outside face of the rail. The only workable option is for the long edges to overhang the rails probably by at least 18- 20 mm at the time of building the table to account for future shrinkage. The ends of the top don't really need to overhang more than a few millimetres because longitudinal wood grain expansion and contraction is insignificant, but if you must (which you must) overhang the long edges it would look a bit odd if the ends didn't overhang the rails by at least a similar amount.

Overall, I think you're overbuilding in terms of thickness and width of several of the parts - I find myself, perhaps surprisingly, generally agreeing with Jacob's earlier comments. I think, after discovering that shocking agreement of our thought, I need to treat my stunned burning forehead with a series of cool, damp flannels, and perhaps a pint of gin and tonic, heavy on the gin, ha, ha. Slainte.

 

[Grantx]

OK, he has agreed to an overhang
Damn good suggestion I hadn't even considered the dirt and not to mention shrinkage/expansion. I should know better after my cracked end grain board.

 

[--Tom--]

If they’ll be kneading bread on it is put a centre support under the top to help support it.
Plus do everything you can do to avoid racking.

 

[Fitzroy]

From the drawing I was concerned you were thinking individual boards which would have been a problem with support and dirt between boards. There is a great thread on here about edge jointing, which avoids any need to repeat that here. You’ll just need to consider expansion when you fix top to frame.

I build a desk a couple of years ago that I did a WIP on. I’m just a hobby woodworker so will have done some stuff wrong. But it shows what I think is a pretty traditional build of a table with a frame and a breadboarded top.
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/corvid19-desk.122198/
Fitz

 

[Ollie78]

What's the best way to join them? I was thinking pocket screws?

No, just no. Almost any proper joint or even loose tenons or metal brackets. Basically anything except pocket screws.

Ollie

 

[Jacob]

No, just no. Almost any proper joint or even loose tenons or metal brackets. Basically anything except pocket screws.

Ollie

Agree.
But as a matter of interest there was well used joint now gone out of fashion called a slotted-screw or "widening" joint - i.e. for widening a board.
I've done it as an exercise, and have found it used in stair treads. Once found it in a pub table where the top had been scrubbed so hard and for so long that the screws were showing through. It obviously worked really well.
Shows how here Widening Joint - DT Online but not very clear.
Two tricks; 1 file the screw heads flatter so they have sharp edges to cut the retaining slot 2 after a dry run separate the pieces, tighten the screws 1/4 turn and repeat with glue.
The method probably gets overlooked because there is nothing to see of it until you scrap the board, and might miss it even then

 

[Kicked Back]

Those corner braces won't do anything.

Regarding M&T vs. screws: I have a Sjobergs Elite workbench. It's meant to be one of the better benches you can buy. It's M&T except for the longitudinal portions (stretchers), where they've used bolts so it can be packed flat for shipping. It doesn't matter how much you tighten the bolts, there's still some racking. And to make matters worse, the bolts loosen over time and the racking gets dramatically worse. I may actually rebuild the stretchers and M&T them myself.

 

[Ollie78]

Agree.
But as a matter of interest there was well used joint now gone out of fashion called a slotted-screw or "widening" joint - i.e. for widening a board.
I've done it as an exercise, and have found it used in stair treads. Once found it in a pub table where the top had been scrubbed so hard and for so long that the screws were showing through. It obviously worked really well.
Shows how here Widening Joint - DT Online but not very clear.
Two tricks; 1 file the screw heads flatter so they have sharp edges to cut the retaining slot 2 after a dry run separate the pieces, tighten the screws 1/4 turn and repeat with glue.
The method probably gets overlooked because there is nothing to see of it until you scrap the board, and might miss it even then

Just had a look at that widening joint, I recently used a similar method to attach a bunch of window boards (they didn`t want plugs showing).
I used a t-slot bit to make slots in the oak boards put washer head screws in the brick with plugs and then pushed the boards in place. Worked a treat.

Ollie

 

[Grantx]

For this braces would need to be from leg to apron in the vertical plane, not horizontal.
But in fact for most purposes a properly made and sized M&T at each corner, with as deep as possible aprons, would do it.

Is this what you mean? Looks terrible but I know its strong (my work bench is made like this)

Alternatively, the M&T at each corner do you mean between leg and apron? So basically fix the leg to aprons with strong M&T joints and the table should be strong enough without that cross bracing?

 

[Jacob]

View attachment 128976
Is this what you mean? Looks terrible but I know its strong (my work bench is made like this)

You could just bracket each of the 8 corners - it's only for kneading dough, not heavy engineering!

Alternatively, the M&T at each corner do you mean between leg and apron? So basically fix the leg to aprons with strong M&T joints and the table should be strong enough without that cross bracing?

Yes leave out brackets etc but make the aprons deeper say 6"minimum.
It's only a conventional kitchen table for a conventional kitchen job - no need to over-think it, it's just one of these :

While you are at it why not add a drawer? Add £500 perhaps.

 

[Grantx]

You could just bracket each of the 8 corners - it's only for kneading dough, not heavy engineering!Yes leave out brackets etc but make the aprons deeper say 6"minimum.
It's only a conventional kitchen table for a conventional kitchen job - no need to over-think it, it's just one of these :
View attachment 128983

While you are at it why not add a drawer? Add £500 perhaps.

Right. I'll go with m&t. The drawer looks nice but I have another table after this one so not going to have the time. And sorry..... but it's a river table. This one will be interesting though - it's extendable so some extra engineering involved

 

[Grantx]

Yes leave out brackets etc but make the aprons deeper say 6"minimum.

Something like this? Aprons have changed to 160mm width, 32mm thick and the depth of m&t is 14mm