graduate_owner
Established Member
Burnt toast? Toast to me means OK as long as it is not actually on fire, whereas the wife thinks hot bread is a bit overcooked.
K
K
Do hand sharpeners burn their toast?
- Thread starter Uncle Bulgaria
- Start date
Help Support UKworkshop.co.uk:
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
My wife's late friend came in one winter night and stood dumbfounded. What are you actually doing? she asked. I'm just toasting crumpets. What? On a fire? Yes. I had some fresh bread there as well as some home made Seville marmalade. She ate some and from then on as long as she came around in the winter toast and crumpets on the fire were compulsory.
Prompted by this thread I had another go at free hand dovetails yesterday, the only aid being a dovetail marker as I can't be bothered faffing around with a sliding bevel. I used an offcut of the easiest to work wood I know (Zirbel Pine). The results were pleasantly suprising: despite wandering a little from a couple of marked lines, the dovetails were in themselves bang on, so wandering by a degree or two from the angled line just doesn't matter. Having cut on the waste side of the line for the pins, they were, unsurprisingly a bit tight and required paring and in a fit of overenthusiatic shoving, I managed to snap off the left pin. But so what? That's what practice is for and the lesson is learned. The offcut has got room for a couple more sets of dovetails in it and if time permits, I'll have another go this evening.
This now means that I'm fairly relaxed about doing free hand dovetails for run of the mill work but I won't be getting rid of my Veritas guide for critical joints in posh wood.
This now means that I'm fairly relaxed about doing free hand dovetails for run of the mill work but I won't be getting rid of my Veritas guide for critical joints in posh wood.
LuptonM
Established Member
I would say a dovetail guide such as the magnetic type from David Baron is quite a good way to learn dovetails.
1) Cut dovetails fully using the guide
2) Use the guide to cut less and less of the dovetail (i.e start the cut with the guide then go freehand until all the way free hand, or start the cut freehand then use the guide ect).
Using the guide fully isn't likely to provide perfect dovetails to a beginner as you still have to get used to using tails to mark the pins, chiseling, making sure the boards are square and flat ect
1) Cut dovetails fully using the guide
2) Use the guide to cut less and less of the dovetail (i.e start the cut with the guide then go freehand until all the way free hand, or start the cut freehand then use the guide ect).
Using the guide fully isn't likely to provide perfect dovetails to a beginner as you still have to get used to using tails to mark the pins, chiseling, making sure the boards are square and flat ect
Got fairly comfortable and reasonably competent cutting dovetails by hand early in the piece; lucky, to have a cabinet maker to show the way. But, the path was not easy, rough plank to start with, #4.5 Stanley, square and a steel rule ‘ “square that up first” was the gruff instruction. Four square was a challenge, but eventually, with some quiet words, I learned to manage the plane and produce a ‘result’ – bit slimmer than the original – but, square. Next three dovetail templates were demanded, 1:6; 1:7, 1:8, seems there’s a ‘professional’ code, task related which must be considered. “Why?” I asked, “must I make a template”. “Dovetails come off the saw” says he, “make the template first, then you shall understand”. I looked carefully at the one provided, measured it up, cut a billet and began – every single flaw in my saw work was revealed (and reviled). There were a dozen total botches in the bin, four nearly right, and eventually one considered ‘adequate – for practice. But before ‘practice on my square board – layout and measuring up; then setting the gauge and marking. Many hours were spent with a scraper and eraser before my first 4 tails were deemed ‘acceptable’. Quick, flawless cutting demo; and, I was on my own. I quickly cut the first 4 off the board before they were spotted; they were followed by a half dozen more; my two foot board reduced now a shadow of it’s former self. Eventually – four acceptable tails were visible – a long day. Pins the next round, same performance and getting the shoulders ‘to the line’, square and fair (saw again), another two foot of rough sawn made square down the pipes. Saw blunt, chisels in need of attention, a fresh gouge in the bench top and a little blood tails and pins merged. “That fits” says I “Aye, so it does, like a gumboot in a corridor” was the response.
My point is that I had a guide – priceless, the best there is. I did not learn to ‘make’ a dovetail joint; I learned the skills which are required to craft wood into the thing required. Once you can ‘saw’ and understand ‘what’ you must do to make a ‘job of it’ the confidence to make that first, all important, relaxed cut flows to your arm; and, you ‘know’ from sound and feel that the cut is ‘right’; then you can make any joint. Even if the first 100 may be of the gumboot class, 101 will make you smile. The next challenge is making four sides of a box – getting it square – and the same depth – the first 10 – ordinary; the experience – sublime. Long ramble and my apologies for it; but, for the price of a couple of rough sawn planks a little time, a lot of effort and some ‘frank’ appraisal – a dovetail is simply another clever joint which is routinely - ‘do-able’. Toast, conversely is strictly ‘automatic’ machine made, I insist.
My point is that I had a guide – priceless, the best there is. I did not learn to ‘make’ a dovetail joint; I learned the skills which are required to craft wood into the thing required. Once you can ‘saw’ and understand ‘what’ you must do to make a ‘job of it’ the confidence to make that first, all important, relaxed cut flows to your arm; and, you ‘know’ from sound and feel that the cut is ‘right’; then you can make any joint. Even if the first 100 may be of the gumboot class, 101 will make you smile. The next challenge is making four sides of a box – getting it square – and the same depth – the first 10 – ordinary; the experience – sublime. Long ramble and my apologies for it; but, for the price of a couple of rough sawn planks a little time, a lot of effort and some ‘frank’ appraisal – a dovetail is simply another clever joint which is routinely - ‘do-able’. Toast, conversely is strictly ‘automatic’ machine made, I insist.
Honest John
Established Member
As a hobbyist woodworker and not in anyway having to earn any sort of remuneration from my efforts, I can see all sides of this debate and see merit in many directions. A year or two ago, I had quite a lengthy conversation with Dave Barron who was attending the Yandles show and happened to be staying at the same hotel as me. The following day at the show I bought one of his magnetic guides and have cut some good dovetails using this. I have also cut some reasonable joints without the device, both pre and post purchase. I find the device extremely useful in setting out the joint. I suppose using it like a dovetail marker. The joint can be marked out with a knife, pencil or indeed with the saw blade. The cuts can be completed with a saw and the guide, or the guide can be dispensed with and the tails cut out free hand. A hobby woodworker like me with many other activities that consumes my time would probably not cut enough dovetails in the remaining lifespan to develop the muscle memory necessary to become a master. I'm sure that all manner of jigs have a place for some people, and that others wouldn't use them under any circumstances. It seems to me that there is no right or wrong in this. The end surely justifies the means. It further seems that "shop made" jigs are acceptable to some people and bought jigs are not. I bought a number of back saws a while ago both in dovetail and tennon type sizes. After all the usual cosmetic and cleaning processes I bought some saw files after a bit of research, and had a go at sharpening and recutting them. They all cut but all that well. I did it again and got better. I then bought a veritas saw file guide and had another go at them. The results this time were superb. I couldn't believe how good and true these saws cut. My point is, with enough practice I could have achieved the same brilliant result, but by using the jig I was able to produce the required profiles very quickly, enabling me to get on with woodworking. In my mind the end justified the means.
HJ makes some valid points, all worthy of merit – a balanced, practical, pragmatic view; no quarrel here with the views expressed. However, with the forums indulgence; a stray thought, offered for consideration only. In my heart, “I Know” that ‘I’ cut the joints – me and my aging saw: “I Know” that every errant saw or chisel stroke was my of my own making. “I know” where my skill, concentration, attention to detail and ‘lazy’ acceptance lay waste to ‘perfection’. I say that if I ever cut or made a joint – or indeed a work piece - that was perfect I would stop work. Purely a personal view – but the day I reckon I know it all, can read to perfection every whim of the wood and operate with a ‘machine like precision’ is the day I quit. A simple knife stroke followed to perfection – how I wish. Can’t ever remember not learning from and even appreciating every mistake, honestly made by my hand -. Learning to ‘fudge’ and ‘slur’ through the difficult pieces is a commercial practice – aided and abetted by machines. I know the router can do it; I know the band saw can do it – much better than I. But compare the drabness of a 100% spot on machine cut to the wee pile of saw dust and shavings your hand, eye and placed at your feet – warts, nicks, chatters and all. A man on a galloping horse won’t spot the two thou out of wind, nor will Aunt Mable; but somewhere, deep inside; where it matters – you will know.
Again; I must apologize for a long post; but, to me, as a wannabe master of my craft I like to know where my mistakes are. No hand, on saw nor toaster, can correct the first cut, nor the attention of the inner man. Blessed if I can define perfection – but I can spot my errors at two yards – ‘tis enough. I shall endeavour not to repeat, but not to stop trying. Nuff said.
Again; I must apologize for a long post; but, to me, as a wannabe master of my craft I like to know where my mistakes are. No hand, on saw nor toaster, can correct the first cut, nor the attention of the inner man. Blessed if I can define perfection – but I can spot my errors at two yards – ‘tis enough. I shall endeavour not to repeat, but not to stop trying. Nuff said.
Honest John
Established Member
Been doing a good deal of thinking about the issues raised in this tread. I think in essence, enjoy what you do in your woodcraft and use whatever methods you wish. Stop when you no longer enjoy it. Those purists who don't or won't use jigs should consider this. A plane is nothing short of a jig to hold a knife blade, as is virtually every other cutting tool that we use, and somebody at some time invented it, and just about everybody since then has had a go at "improving" it.
I have some small boxes to make and was planning to hand cut dovetails for one of them an box joint another. I generally hand cut all my joinery. This thread being in my mind suggested another route.... some years ago I bought in a closing down sale, a trend Cj300 dovetail jig and also the additional box joint comb. I decided this was an opportunity to try it out, as box joints are often machine cut. This evening I cut the joints for the first box using the box joint comb. I won't be doing it again! I could have cut the joinery by hand in half the time it took me to set this up. Factor in a screeming router, and dealing with all the dust it's not an experience I want to repeat. Most of my woodwork is completed with hand tools, because that's the way I like to do it, but I'm not against machinery in stock preparation and I'm not against hand tool type jigs such as dovetail guides, honing guides etc although I also hand sharpen between jig sharpening sessions to restore the geometry. Nobody should feel bad about using available jigs to assist them if it's what they want to do and it may even increase their confidence. My future box projects will all be hand cut from now on, although I may use Dave Barrens saw guide on occasions. Sorry for rambling on.
I have some small boxes to make and was planning to hand cut dovetails for one of them an box joint another. I generally hand cut all my joinery. This thread being in my mind suggested another route.... some years ago I bought in a closing down sale, a trend Cj300 dovetail jig and also the additional box joint comb. I decided this was an opportunity to try it out, as box joints are often machine cut. This evening I cut the joints for the first box using the box joint comb. I won't be doing it again! I could have cut the joinery by hand in half the time it took me to set this up. Factor in a screeming router, and dealing with all the dust it's not an experience I want to repeat. Most of my woodwork is completed with hand tools, because that's the way I like to do it, but I'm not against machinery in stock preparation and I'm not against hand tool type jigs such as dovetail guides, honing guides etc although I also hand sharpen between jig sharpening sessions to restore the geometry. Nobody should feel bad about using available jigs to assist them if it's what they want to do and it may even increase their confidence. My future box projects will all be hand cut from now on, although I may use Dave Barrens saw guide on occasions. Sorry for rambling on.
Nicely put HJ; and spot on. If I had to make four or six ‘boxes’, the timber would be milled to size and square (checked of course) – then I may make a plywood ‘template’; probably half width size and take some small time ‘cutting the ‘jig’ – to save time and reducing the error count on what, maybe 16 joints; per box; that’s four cuts per pin and tail, that’s 64 chances of error. A silly, pointless risk – why chance it. I wish there was a jig that I could ‘adjust’ to the exact dimensions required – set, forget and saw away. But apart from my ply ‘template’ cut once – I can’t see the need for any ‘mechanical’ assistance. Unless, as you say, we were at-it for a living and had to knock out a half dozen drawers before morning tea then the router and jigs would be running hot; no hesitation.
I was speaking of the esoteric. The simple pleasure of being in your own workshop, making something interesting, a one off, created at leisure. You know the one, where you sweep off the bench looking at the thing, wondering about this and that, noting where, perhaps a shaving could come off, or a file could be used; don’t have to; should not have to – had the first attempt been ‘proper’. Fix it tomorrow you say, before shuffling off for a beer, satisfied. There are children who can do things with a router and jig I wouldn’t even attempt – but then I can (mostly) cut square and chisel straight. The time taken to learn that is much, much longer than it takes to master the router and gig. As you quite rightly point out – it took longer to use the comb than it would take you to do by hand (for lack of practice?). For doing ‘a few’ I would bet you were ahead. For doing 50 or 60, by hand, you’d come in a poor second. Horses for courses – no argument; and I do have a shop full of noisy, dusty annoying toys, even like some of ‘em. – However, that old dovetail saw coyly beckons, the venerable, shining firmer chisels tucked away in their leather beds sing a siren song, the mallet hovers at the edge of the vision, eager to be used. Then, it’s my clumsy hand they forgive as they thumb their noses at the un used toys, while being put away, clean and oiled. I’ve no quarrel with anyone using that which pleases them best – or, that which removes their natural errors from a job – like my bench press drill – I cannot – for some strange reason ever ‘drill’ dead straight – so the machine gets used. I like that one. Another ramble – all your fault HJ – got me thinking. That hurts – and that, definitely, is it from me. All forbearance appreciated. Sam.
I was speaking of the esoteric. The simple pleasure of being in your own workshop, making something interesting, a one off, created at leisure. You know the one, where you sweep off the bench looking at the thing, wondering about this and that, noting where, perhaps a shaving could come off, or a file could be used; don’t have to; should not have to – had the first attempt been ‘proper’. Fix it tomorrow you say, before shuffling off for a beer, satisfied. There are children who can do things with a router and jig I wouldn’t even attempt – but then I can (mostly) cut square and chisel straight. The time taken to learn that is much, much longer than it takes to master the router and gig. As you quite rightly point out – it took longer to use the comb than it would take you to do by hand (for lack of practice?). For doing ‘a few’ I would bet you were ahead. For doing 50 or 60, by hand, you’d come in a poor second. Horses for courses – no argument; and I do have a shop full of noisy, dusty annoying toys, even like some of ‘em. – However, that old dovetail saw coyly beckons, the venerable, shining firmer chisels tucked away in their leather beds sing a siren song, the mallet hovers at the edge of the vision, eager to be used. Then, it’s my clumsy hand they forgive as they thumb their noses at the un used toys, while being put away, clean and oiled. I’ve no quarrel with anyone using that which pleases them best – or, that which removes their natural errors from a job – like my bench press drill – I cannot – for some strange reason ever ‘drill’ dead straight – so the machine gets used. I like that one. Another ramble – all your fault HJ – got me thinking. That hurts – and that, definitely, is it from me. All forbearance appreciated. Sam.
- Joined
- 16 Sep 2006
- Messages
- 375
- Reaction score
- 157
I can't understand this spending on specialist tools: surely no true craftsman needs anything more than a stone axe, with perhaps a steel axe for dovetails?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyoLimey Lurker":1td6ldyh said:
