Discussion point - Trump policy illegal immigrants.

[YorkshireMartin]

Theres a news report that Trump is all set to deport up to 3 million illegal immigrants. Apparently he will initially aim to deport known criminals, gang members and drug dealers. That struck me as strange, because if someone is in the justice system and known to be an illegal immigrant, why were they not deported previously?

What I'm struggling with, is why people disagree with him doing this, assuming of course, that it can be proven that every person deported was there illegally.

Can anyone, perhaps who would be pro illegal immigrant, shed some light on what the objections to the policy are, with reference to the above burden of proof? Also objections to building the wall that Trump proposes, because to me, the arguments against are not clear.

 

[Stanleymonkey]

As for the wall - 12 billion dollars to build and he will force another country (that doesn't want it) to pay for it.

An outrageous promise to voters - that he will never be able to honour and he knows that.

He is already back tracking, before even being sworn in. (Trump: Sorry I meant a fence in lots of places - have I misled you?)

No politicians ever deliver on all their promises. But history has extreme cases where people have tried and succeeded to take power based on extreme lies and slurs.

The fact that the Klu Klux Klan are organising a parade to celebrate his victory should tell you all you need to know.

 

[Jacob]

He's back tracking heavily already - it's not 3million - it's "known criminals etc" first. In other words a very small group, most of whom would have been deported already. In any case many of these may well now be leading exemplary lives, having paid the price etc etc.
But the American economy depends on immigrant cheap labour even more so than we do here - so the Americans will be losers if anything major happened on this front, just as we would here without migrant labour.
Then there would be the reaction - other countries banning American entrants etc. just as the EU could do with all those Brits living and working abroad. Don't fancy having them all back here - moaning about the wine the weather and house prices!
The bottom line objection from a purely selfish point of view is that policies like these might one day have you and me on the wrong side of a wall - it's basically extremely inhuman.

 

[RobinBHM]

Unfortunately its hard to know what of Trumps rhetoric, if any he plans on making policy.

Somehow he has got to limit his devisive rhetoric whilst keeping happy those that voted him based on those policies.

I understand there has been a rise in the KKK and white suprrmacy, william johnson is a supremist and part of Trumps team. Worrying.

Trump must reach out to Black, Muslim etc leaders.

Wall, all rhetoric and will never happen. Of course Mexico want to build a wall on their Southern Border, ironic!

 

[sunnybob]

just as the EU could do with all those Brits living and working abroad. Don't fancy having them all back here - moaning about the wine the weather and house prices!
.

Hey! I resemble that remark!!!

But you forgot to mention the M5.

 

[t8hants]

Promises the earth - delivers a window box.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

that'll be a politician then!

 

[YorkshireMartin]

might one day have you and me on the wrong side of a wall

We already are. If you've ever considered emigrating to the US, marriage to a US citizen or company transfer aside, you'd find it's virtually impossible, even if suitably qualified in a profession. However, I'd never have considered entering illegally and I'm certain you wouldn't either.

Granted, we are not living in poverty and we dont have to walk between dead bodies to get to the paper shop.

 

[Jacob]

.... However, I'd never have considered entering illegally and I'm certain you wouldn't either.....

Some people are driven to desperate measures - so yes I would if I had to and you would too.

 

[YorkshireMartin]

.... However, I'd never have considered entering illegally and I'm certain you wouldn't either.....

Some people are driven to desperate measures - so yes I would if I had to and you would too.

I personally only know one Mexican. He's an illegal immigrant. A (good) gardener and very hard working. He of course sends money home but his family were not facing starvation or anything like that. It was an economic choice he made, he told me himself. I think thats the reality for many. They see the lifestyle Americans have and want the same for their family, going to extreme lengths to achieve it. There's quite a big difference between that and being forced to break the law to feed your children, because if you're that desperate, it would be far easier to steal money or food in Mexico in order to subsist.

I think the impression that the families of illegal immigrants would starve if they didnt jump the border is just left wing propaganda mostly.

I like Jose though, still don't really agree with what he's doing, but he's a likeable chap. Everyone chips in for a new pair of shoes for him when he returns from his regular deportations.

To answer your assumption that I'd break the law....if facing starvation, I would. But I'd rob the local shop/farmers field or something, not undertake an epic journey to another country.

 

[Jacob]

...There's quite a big difference between that and being forced to break the law to feed your children, because if you're that desperate, it would be far easier to steal money or food in Mexico in order to subsist....

Drop your mate a line - explain it would be a wise career move to start doing a bit of burglary and shop lifting nearer to home.
Maybe he'd rather work for a living - a selfish and inconsiderate attitude - what if everybody thought like that?

 

[YorkshireMartin]

...There's quite a big difference between that and being forced to break the law to feed your children, because if you're that desperate, it would be far easier to steal money or food in Mexico in order to subsist....

Drop your mate a line - explain it would be a wise career move to start doing a bit of burglary and shop lifting nearer to home.
Maybe he'd rather work for a living - a selfish and inconsiderate attitude - what if everybody thought like that?

Yes indeed, but that also suggests one crime is somehow lesser than the other? He's not allowed to work where he's working, it's illegal.

So, whats the difference?

 

[Jacob]

...There's quite a big difference between that and being forced to break the law to feed your children, because if you're that desperate, it would be far easier to steal money or food in Mexico in order to subsist....

Drop your mate a line - explain it would be a wise career move to start doing a bit of burglary and shop lifting nearer to home.
Maybe he'd rather work for a living - a selfish and inconsiderate attitude - what if everybody thought like that?

Yes indeed, but that also suggests one crime is somehow lesser than the other? He's not allowed to work where he's working, it's illegal.

So, whats the difference?

:lol: Let us know when you have worked it out!

 

[whiskywill]

Granted, we are not living in poverty and we dont have to walk between dead bodies to get to the paper shop.

So you live in a posh area. :shock:

 

[kdampney]

Can anyone, perhaps who would be pro illegal immigrant, shed some light on what the objections to the policy are, with reference to the above burden of proof? Also objections to building the wall that Trump proposes, because to me, the arguments against are not clear.

I guess the issue is the underlying implications of those policies.

Putting aside those who are currently in US prisons (2.2 million total population), how do you know if someone may be in the country illegally, without rounding up non-whites (stopping people in the street, or knocking on doors and searching basements) and demanding documentation? You're then treating whites and non-whites differently, assuming the latter MAY be dodgy, which is racial profiling, racially aggravating, and against the Constitution. Think of the trouble that African-Americans have had with the police stopping them for no reason while they're just driving a car... Also every person in the US (legal or otherwise) needs to have legal 'due process', including appeals, so it's not a quick or cheap process.

For the prison population, could Mexico handle even 250,000, if there are that many, convicted and repatriated murderers, drug dealers, gang members, etc. appearing on their doorstep in the next year, which would double their prison population?

The 'wall' suggests there is a horde of Mexicans marching into the US who must be stopped at all costs, demonising those who are there legally or illegally.

Is spending several billion dollars on a huge deportation force or a border fence (which can be gone through, under or over) a top priority? More so than stopping climate change, or having affordable healthcare, or stopping teens getting hold of guns and taking them into school? Big smoke screen to pander to rednecks, while achieving very little.

That's probably the argument anyway.

 

[thetyreman]

lets rebuild the berlin wall whilst we are at it...

 

[Jacob]

lets rebuild the berlin wall whilst we are at it...

And Hadrian's Wall looks a bit tatty - and whatever happened to Offa's ****?

 

[YorkshireMartin]

Can anyone, perhaps who would be pro illegal immigrant, shed some light on what the objections to the policy are, with reference to the above burden of proof? Also objections to building the wall that Trump proposes, because to me, the arguments against are not clear.

I guess the issue is the underlying implications of those policies.

Putting aside those who are currently in US prisons (2.2 million total population), how do you know if someone may be in the country illegally, without rounding up non-whites (stopping people in the street, or knocking on doors and searching basements) and demanding documentation? You're then treating whites and non-whites differently, assuming the latter MAY be dodgy, which is racial profiling, racially aggravating, and against the Constitution. Think of the trouble that African-Americans have had with the police stopping them for no reason while they're just driving a car... Also every person in the US (legal or otherwise) needs to have legal 'due process', including appeals, so it's not a quick or cheap process.

For the prison population, could Mexico handle even 250,000, if there are that many, convicted and repatriated murderers, drug dealers, gang members, etc. appearing on their doorstep in the next year, which would double their prison population?

The 'wall' suggests there is a horde of Mexicans marching into the US who must be stopped at all costs, demonising those who are there legally or illegally.

Is spending several billion dollars on a huge deportation force or a border fence (which can be gone through, under or over) a top priority? More so than stopping climate change, or having affordable healthcare, or stopping teens getting hold of guns and taking them into school? Big smoke screen to pander to rednecks, while achieving very little.

That's probably the argument anyway.

A lot of the illegal immgrants, millions, have been deported previously and are documented. The guy I know, Jose, has been deported at least once a year for the past 27 years, his personal record is 4 times in a single year. It's just a question of locating them. In many cases, I believe their locations are well known as they live and work openly.

It's a rather different situation to that of illegal immigrants here, who tend to be off the radar.

 

[YorkshireMartin]

lets rebuild the berlin wall whilst we are at it...

Does the fact it's a wall make a difference to perception do you think?

Theres an existing fence which is supposed to do the job, but doesn't, so I guess the thinking was that a wall would be more effective.

The Berlin wall was an ever so slightly different situation I think...lol

 

[YorkshireMartin]

Drop your mate a line - explain it would be a wise career move to start doing a bit of burglary and shop lifting nearer to home.
Maybe he'd rather work for a living - a selfish and inconsiderate attitude - what if everybody thought like that?

Yes indeed, but that also suggests one crime is somehow lesser than the other? He's not allowed to work where he's working, it's illegal.

So, whats the difference?

:lol: Let us know when you have worked it out!

I'd like you to enlighten me sir! Are you suggesting, for example, that illegal immigration is a less serious or a victimless crime? Hmm