Jacob
What goes around comes around.
So if he was your neighbour and on his beam ends - which would you advise: 1 try a bit of local larceny, 2 travel and see if you could get a job 3 drop dead?YorkshireMartin":2cfw3fk4 said:
Discussion point - Trump policy illegal immigrants.
- Thread starter YorkshireMartin
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YorkshireMartin
Established Member
Jacob":34iese9m said:
:roll:
You're heading into the realms of fantasy now.
It's not simply "travel to see if you could get a job". It's travel illegally to see if you could get a job illegally. In other words, commit a crime, become a criminal. Theres just no avoiding it. It's a fact not opinion. The only thing left to debate is to what extent the crime should be punished, or whether it should be a crime at all.
I am not a Mexican career advisor so it's a little hard to say what a particular individual should do with his life beyond trying to avoid committing a crime?
I'm really not sure what you'd like to see happen. If you have a solution it would be nice to hear it. All the left vs. right vitriol just doesn't help. Open borders between US and Mexico simply won't ever happen, so the only other solution is to enforce the current border and permit controlled, legal, migration. I personally cannot see anything wrong with that? There has to be a first step and that is securing of the border and deporting, initially, the career criminals, whom they already know of. What else can they realistically do? It's been just left alone for far too long when it should have been sorted out long ago, it's just such a hot potato that nobody had the guts to tackle it, on either side of the argument.
I've no idea what Trump's intentions are beyond controlling that border. They could indeed be sinister, but I doubt it. Luckily, the US has a lot of checks and balances which would prevent a lot of extreme policy decisions, even at executive level, with reservations for critical elements.
Anyway, it's way past lunch time.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
I've never heard anybody before suggest that the solution to the problems of economic migrants is that they should stay at home and steal from their neighbours!
fiveeyes
Established Member
So..is it then OK to travel to another country and steal from them?Jacob":1gixwf5h said:
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
So.. if an economic migrant arrived on your door step do you think it would be better if he set about thieving in the neighbourhood, or looking for work?fiveeyes":1c5lxu90 said:
YorkshireMartin
Established Member
Jacob":1xaipe3c said:
That wasn't my proposed solution Jacob, don't be silly. I don't have a proposed solution because I'm not in receipt of the necessary information to draw any form of conclusion. However, you don't have to be in receipt of anything other than basic world knowledge to know that crossing the US border from Mexico without a visa, is illegal. You just seem to refuse to admit that illegal immigration is a crime. It's mind boggling.
The irony of all this, is that close family members, due to visit us for Christmas and New Year, have been denied a UK visa just this very morning. This is despite visiting the UK many times before and their circumstances are exactly the same. So I have spent all day trying to work out what the heck is going on and working with them to navigate the UK immigration system, which, if you do things legally, is a dogs breakfast.
Our wall is the English channel and as a lifelong citizen I can't even bring my closest family members here for Christmas. Do you know why it's so hard? Long term abuse of visitor/family visas. It's made them reject far more applications than previously. That's what my sister in law was told by the embassy officer at interview.
So if you think illegal immigration is victimless, it isn't.
I didn't know of their rejection when I started this thread. What should I advise them to do, swim for it because borders dont matter? :roll:
RogerP
Established Member
The plaque at the base of the Statue of Liberty reads:
"Give me your tired, your poor,
your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
the wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
What went wrong?
"Give me your tired, your poor,
your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
the wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
What went wrong?
YorkshireMartin
Established Member
RogerP":2n31dytx said:
Someone traded in the golden door at cash4gold.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Sorry about your relatives. Are they foreign nationals? Not being nosey, just wondering why they have a problem.YorkshireMartin":efz14tc5 said:
You can't blame other immigrants for their problems - the blame is with the home office and the anti-immigration atmosphere of recent months, generated by the media and the far right.
I don't think migration is a crime but making it illegal raises many issues.
On the whole I admire the way people can risk everything for a better life and and on the whole we get enormous benefit from their presence here. "On yer bike and look for work" as Norman Tebbitt said - good for everybody.
There are problems of course, but there would be much bigger problems if immigration was too limited.
YorkshireMartin
Established Member
Jacob":h0zdcsxi said:
They are foreign nationals yes, my wife is a naturalised citizen.
They have been given the reasons by an official from the embassy. It is entirely down to people acting outside the law in terms of immigration. Saying they are visitors when they intend to work, overstaying, fake students at fake colleges. Thats entirely why theres this issue at all, it's been going on for years but people seem to have had enough of it.
I view this, if they are not denied again, as taking one for the team, because something did need doing to address the situation with immigration.
The government have no choice but to respond to illegal immigration with further restrictions. Migration isn't a crime and nobody made it illegal in itself, you just need to obtain permission to cross into another country legally, which is an entirely reasonable thing to expect to have to do. If you removed all borders, there would be nothing but bloodshed the world over, as different groups fought for control of the best spots. That's why it isn't so. Heck, we can't even live in peace with the borders, so without would be a total bloodbath.
It's a lovely idea, though and it might work if the subject species was sheep, instead of humans.
RossJarvis
Established Member
YorkshireMartin":3gcsromi said:
Unfortunately I've got too much time on my hands today so can think of nothing better than getting involved in these discussions.
Regarding the victimless crime, I can't quite see so clearly who the victims here may be, particularly in relation to crimes such as robbery etc. From my position I can't but help think about the voyage of the St. Louis in 1939; https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.ph ... d=10005267, or the efforts by the British Government to hold back immigration to the UK and Palestine. In these instances the legality of the issues was at complete odds to the morality of what was really going on. To cut a long story short. the "free West" legally prevented people escaping "legal murder".
Now maybe it's unfair to compare the situation of the 30s and 40s to todays migration issues, but I can personally see where at least in some instances I'd be happy to support illegal immigration.
I have worked with a number of immigrants over the years, including legal economic migrants from the EU and asylum seekers from elsewhere. Generally they've all been really nice folks and often seemed a lot more useful to many "native white folk". I can see where some have actually had to start playing some sort of game and veer either side of the "legal" lines imposed. Generally I have more sympathy with them than the jobsworths trying to implement a creaking and very imperfect immigration system.
Maybe, as you are finding with your relatives, an immigration system set up with some sensible ideas and principles on general suppositions about what is going on (though I personally doubt that), ends up totally failing the real-life circumstances of the poor sods who get caught up in it.
I doubt myself whether there has been much change since the situation a few years ago where the immigration system was obviously unfit for purpose. In fact, I think, like with the NHS and Education, these things are far too important to let the government anywhere near being in control of them.
