Diamond Stones: You CAN Go Pretty Low...

[J_SAMa]

Hi all,
I'm sure a lot of you have heard of or used Trend's new, cheaper line of diamond sharpeners, the CraftPro's:
http://www.trenddirectuk.com/sharpening/craftpro-diamond-stones/cr-dws-b6-fc.html
£32.50

If you're planning on buying it, don't

Because here is the exact same stone sold at half the price under a less well-known brand
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Master-Class-Sided-Sharpening-Stone/dp/B004VQXO84
£16.83

Short review by me can be found on the Amazon page. Really it's perfect except for not being flat lengthwise (I'm fine with that since I freehand)

Makes ya think how much big companies like trend make just with their reputation... :-k Unfair to smaller companies and a burden to our wallets.

Disclaimer: I'm not starting another sharpening thread...
Sam

 

[matthewwh]

I'm not sure I would describe Trend as big in comparison to Amazon.

 

[J_SAMa]

I'm not sure I would describe Trend as big in comparison to Amazon.

In comparison to "Masterclass" I think it is... At least its more well known to woodworkers.

 

[KevM]

Sam,

That looks like quite a find! I bought an own brand double sided diamond stone from Axminster, http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-double-sided-diamond-bench-stone a year or so back. At the time I paid ~£15-16 (including a discount offer) which seemed fair. A couple of the reviewers complain about lack of flatness - mine's perfect when offered up against a good straight edge.

Not defending tool companies gouging on the basis of their reputation (many do!) - but being charitable I wonder if there's an element of quality control about this? In the semi-conductor industry, material comes off the line, and depending on how well it baked it goes to different markets. So maybe Trend get the top 10% of the output and the other 90% goes to the kitchen market? Just a thought, and an uncharacteristically charitable one for me when it comes to my cynicism about corporate profit motives!

On second thoughts, I'd guess they're just gouging based on their name...

Kev

 

[nathandavies]

i'm buying some router cutters, Wealden are out of the size I need, so getting trend, they are cheaper from a tool website than trends own website, which I find weird

 

[mseries]

i'm buying some router cutters, Wealden are out of the size I need, so getting trend, they are cheaper from a tool website than trends own website, which I find weird

I just got a Trend T10 from CPC, I swapped emails with a chap from Trend asking if they might have some show specials in Harrogate at the weekend which may come close to the CPC price. He didn't answer my question and when inviting Trend to price match he responded 'you should buy from CPC as you'll not get it at that price anywhere else'.

 

[J_SAMa]

Sam,

That looks like quite a find! I bought an own brand double sided diamond stone from Axminster, http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-double-sided-diamond-bench-stone a year or so back. At the time I paid ~£15-16 (including a discount offer) which seemed fair. A couple of the reviewers complain about lack of flatness - mine's perfect when offered up against a good straight edge.

Not defending tool companies gouging on the basis of their reputation (many do!) - but being charitable I wonder if there's an element of quality control about this? In the semi-conductor industry, material comes off the line, and depending on how well it baked it goes to different markets. So maybe Trend get the top 10% of the output and the other 90% goes to the kitchen market? Just a thought, and an uncharacteristically charitable one for me when it comes to my cynicism about corporate profit motives!

On second thoughts, I'd guess they're just gouging based on their name...

Kev

Well, that is probably true for many if not most industries. I know Asustek used to do that for Asus/Asrock... But that's off topic.
Even if that were true, I gotta say the quality with Master Class is still satisfactory at first side. But for diamond stones, only time will tell its real ability to hold up to use and abuse.

Sam

 

[KevM]

Price matching bothers me, in general terms I don't want to see a cost driven race to the bottom where faceless internet drop-shippers can out perform specialist retailers on price - but at the same time I want to get the best value for my money. I guess if all the manufacturers and distributors routinely price matched, then all the independent retailers would be squeezed out.

I guess this is where value has to include all the intangibles, e.g. advice, backup, warranty, not selling dross, nice cup of tea and a hobnob... So, I suppose I'd object to paying full whack to buy from Trend's site, but would be happy(ish) buying it from Tom's Tool Shack because of the intangibles.

 

[J_SAMa]

And just some (slightly off-topic) thoughts,
It seems that the quality of tools in the lower-end of the market is being restored. I am constantly being impressed by companies like Faithfull and this "Master Class" (or whoever that's behind it), who make exceptional chisel for the price. Maybe it was time these manufacturers started "refining" their tools? For example Faithfull could make their chisels better by, say, grinding the sidelands finer, or introducing a new line, like skew chisels or carving gouges. I'm sure they're more than capable of that.
Oh well, I sure like to dream...

 

[J_SAMa]

Price matching bothers me, in general terms I don't want to see a cost driven race to the bottom where faceless internet drop-shippers can out perform specialist retailers on price - but at the same time I want to get the best value for my money. I guess if all the manufacturers and distributors routinely price matched, then all the independent retailers would be squeezed out.

I guess this is where value has to include all the intangibles, e.g. advice, backup, warranty, not selling dross, nice cup of tea and a hobnob... So, I suppose I'd object to paying full whack to buy from Trend's site, but would be happy(ish) buying it from Tom's Tool Shack because of the intangibles.

Not sure about Master Class, but I know Amazon's got good return policies.

 

[KevM]

Don't get me wrong, Amazon are absolutely first class and I've returned some fairly big ticket items without any quibbles from Amazon - for on-line purchase they're frequently my first and last stop purely because of their returns policy. What concerns me is that when I get a bargain today am I losing an option tomorrow by not supporting Tom's Tool Shack? And can you put a price on the whole experience of a tool shop? Even Axminster, who offer a fantastic on-line and bricks and mortar experience, have managed to retain some of that fantastic tool shop experience (is it the smell of light machine oil?) in spite of all the plate glass. When time and funds permit I'd always prefer to visit a real shop run by people with real knowledge (even if Axminster make me pay for my tea and don't give me a hobnob...), sadly times and funds are both always in short supply.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

And just some (slightly off-topic) thoughts,
It seems that the quality of tools in the lower-end of the market is being restored. I am constantly being impressed by companies like Faithfull and this "Master Class" (or whoever that's behind it), who make exceptional chisel for the price. Maybe it was time these manufacturers started "refining" their tools? For example Faithfull could make their chisels better by, say, grinding the sidelands finer, or introducing a new line, like skew chisels or carving gouges. I'm sure they're more than capable of that.
Oh well, I sure like to dream...

If there's a conclusion to be drawn from recent threads about cheaper tools, it's that quality can be reasonable in some examples, but it isn't consistent.

Quality, and especially consistent quality, always comes at a price. Careful selection and control of the materials of manufacture, control of the processes of manufacture to give accuracy and good finishes, and not skipping any out (eg. annealing of plane body castings), careful assembly and inspection before packing and despatch. Good support for customers after sale in the event of any problems escaping inspection. All those are costs a manufacturer of premium goods must factor into the sale price. The budget manufacturer can concentrate on volume production for the DIY market, use cheaper materials, skip processes such as casting annealing, and leave after-sales woes to the retailer. Price will therefore be lower, but problems are much more likely. (That's before considering the relative manufacturing costs of different parts of the globe, and costs such as marketing.)

So far as the buyer is concerned, you pays your money and you takes your chances. Shell out for a premium brand, and it'll work superbly straight from the box, or you can get your money back with no quibbles. Buy budget, and you may get a reasonably good 'un with or without a bit of fettling, or you may get a Friday Afternoon Special, for which you may get your money back from a decent retailer.

Asking the budget manufacturers to make specialist tools is probably asking too much. If there's a bulk market - if the DIY sheds think they can shift them - they'll be made. However, it's not worth their tooling costs for a niche market. Only the professionals and serious amateurs understand or want fine side bevels, skew chisels or carving gouges, so the size of market only supports the niche makers.

 

[bugbear]

And just some (slightly off-topic) thoughts,
It seems that the quality of tools in the lower-end of the market is being restored. I am constantly being impressed by companies like Faithfull and this "Master Class" (or whoever that's behind it), who make exceptional chisel for the price. Maybe it was time these manufacturers started "refining" their tools? For example Faithfull could make their chisels better by, say, grinding the sidelands finer, or introducing a new line, like skew chisels or carving gouges. I'm sure they're more than capable of that.

Well, yes, I'm sure they are. Most engineering companies can do pretty much anything. The question is can they do the extra work for a price the customer is prepared to pay.

BugBear

 

[MIGNAL]

I've never tried a Diamond stone and I guess they can be a bit expensive to find out whether you like them or not. A friend did buy one of the cheap (not this one) diamond stones and was very disappointed, apart from the first few days when it was fresh.
I guess that is the real test. How effective it is over the course of a couple of years or so.

 

[J_SAMa]

And just some (slightly off-topic) thoughts,
It seems that the quality of tools in the lower-end of the market is being restored. I am constantly being impressed by companies like Faithfull and this "Master Class" (or whoever that's behind it), who make exceptional chisel for the price. Maybe it was time these manufacturers started "refining" their tools? For example Faithfull could make their chisels better by, say, grinding the sidelands finer, or introducing a new line, like skew chisels or carving gouges. I'm sure they're more than capable of that.

Well, yes, I'm sure they are. Most engineering companies can do pretty much anything. The question is can they do the extra work for a price the customer is prepared to pay.

BugBear

I think Faithfull's got good QC and all. And I doubt grinding chisels' sides finer costs much extra...
Sam

 

[Lons]

I think Faithfull's got good QC and all. And I doubt grinding chisels' sides finer costs much extra... Sam

I thought Faithful were just importers of chiwanese stuff :? I have a few tools and a vice and they've been value for money but certainly made to a price. I had an issue with the vice which was sorted out and so no complaints BTW.

KevM wrote:
Price matching bothers me, in general terms I don't want to see a cost driven race to the bottom where faceless internet drop-shippers can out perform specialist retailers on price - but at the same time I want to get the best value for my money. I guess if all the manufacturers and distributors routinely price matched, then all the independent retailers would be squeezed out.

I guess this is where value has to include all the intangibles, e.g. advice, backup, warranty, not selling dross, nice cup of tea and a hobnob... So, I suppose I'd object to paying full whack to buy from Trend's site, but would be happy(ish) buying it from Tom's Tool Shack because of the intangibles.

I can appreciate both sides of that and I'd prefer to buy locally and be happy to pay a bit more for the pleasure of seeing and handling a tool before I part with my hard earned...however.... there must be many like me who don't have a decent tool shop within reach, 50+ miles in my case, and therefore forced to buy on the internet in which case I shop for best price / delivery / in stock etc. I can order in via some of my local suppliers and sometimes do so, but that is no different from buying direct as I still can't see the items prior to purchase.

Bob

PS... Axminster take note and open a branch in Newcastle - PLEASE

 

[J_SAMa]

I thought Faithful were just importers of chiwanese stuff :?

Importers do their own QC right :?

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I thought Faithful were just importers of chiwanese stuff :?

Importers do their own QC right :?

Some do, some don't.

The reports on Faithfull planes suggested that some were fine, but there were some that had to be returned to the retailer because the faults were unacceptable in a new plane - for example, a number 7 plane with an out-of-flat sole.

 

[Jason]

If there's a conclusion to be drawn from recent threads about cheaper tools, it's that quality can be reasonable in some examples, but it isn't consistent.

I keep reading folk praising the quality of these cheap tools - but I ain't seeing it. I'm just seeing cheap.

The diamond stone looks exactly like what I'd expect from a cheap diamond stone. It's not flat. Possibly for knives or axes the concave side of this would be okay, but for bench tools... it's not suitable. You need to be able to keep the backs of bench chisels (and plane irons) flat. This will dish your tools on on the coarse side and hump them on the other.

And you can't flatten these stones like you easily can with natural stones. You need them engineered flat from the get go.

I fully endorse the notion that you don't need to spend big bucks on premium and heir-loom grade items in order to work wood. But you do need to get some basics right. A woodworker would do better with a budget oil or water stone combo (either of which you can easily flatten and maintain your self) than with this thing.

[edit] Also I'm not sure that this is the necessarily the exact same stone as the Trend. It might be. But it's also plausible that Trend specify their stock to be within some tolerance or specification, whereas this company might be specifying another tolerance for theirs.

 

[J_SAMa]

If there's a conclusion to be drawn from recent threads about cheaper tools, it's that quality can be reasonable in some examples, but it isn't consistent.

I keep reading folk praising the quality of these cheap tools - but I ain't seeing it. I'm just seeing cheap.

The diamond stone looks exactly like what I'd expect from a cheap diamond stone. It's not flat. Possibly for knives or axes the concave side of this would be okay, but for bench tools... it's not suitable. You need to be able to keep the backs of bench chisels (and plane irons) flat. This will dish your tools on on the coarse side and hump them on the other.

And you can't flatten these stones like you easily can with natural stones. You need them engineered flat from the get go.

I fully endorse the notion that you don't need to spend big bucks on premium and heir-loom grade items in order to work wood. But you do need to get some basics right. A woodworker would do better with a budget oil or water stone combo (either of which you can easily flatten and maintain your self) than with this thing.

[edit] Also I'm not sure that this is the necessarily the exact same stone as the Trend. It might be. But it's also plausible that Trend specify their stock to be within some tolerance or specification, whereas this company might be specifying another tolerance for theirs.

Oh the sharpening medium flatness discussion again...
Yes you do need a stone that's flat in its width (and this one is), otherwise it will sharpen blades convex, but along the length, not really. Most stones (even diamond stones) are more or less out of flat due to normal use and wear, that's why if a truly flat back is to be achieved, it is best flattened on sandpaper on plate glass. During normal sharpening, the back of a tool is only pulled across the not-so-flat stone once or twice to take off the burr, which shouldn't change the shape too much.

And about this being the same as Trend... This review reveals that the Trend has the same problem, flatness.
http://www.trend-uk.com/en/AT/trend/content/download_file.php?file=dGVzdF9jcmR3c19haC5wZGY=

Sam