Degree?

[wobblycogs]

Very interesting Steve, thanks for giving us an insight into medicine. Glad to hear that there is a nice high hurdle to get over before they get to test out their new found knowledge on real people

 

[Dibs-h]

Steve - really useful post.

Cheers

Dibs

 

[JakeS]

I like to hear both sides of a debate, hence my disgust at the Guardian's treatment that I mentioned earlier. How can you reject Darwin, or anything else without some knowledge of the subject? Science only advances because people ask questions, sometimes very basic ones, and that is not possible without some understanding of the subject.

Climate change is a little more hazy, but you can't hear both sides of the debate on the Darwinism vs. Creationism front because there is no debate - just a stroppy teen wailing at Mum and Dad about how it's so unfair and he hates them so much, while Dad sits in the lounge reading the newspaper and saying "if you want to live in my house, you obey my rules. If you want to be treated like an adult, then act like one."



I'd tend to agree if you were talking about scientists, and should any ID/creationist people submit papers to the appropriate journals, I'd hope that they get treated with the same objectivity and examination of the process and empirical evidence that any other paper would be treated with in peer review, which is where scientists get to check out other scientists' work.

But you're not - you're talking about newspaper column inches and the opinions of - without intending to be elitist - non-scientists. The problem is that the entire goal of people like the Intelligent Design crowd is to confuse people and muddy the water by forcing the science establishment to treat them like any other scientific hypothesis and look like they're taking ID seriously. If you present both sides of the argument in the amount of space and with the depth that you can expect from a daily newspaper, you're engaging them in debate, and basically elevating them from "crackpot" to "credible scientific hypothesis", which is exactly what they're aiming for.

You can see from the "evolution is just a theory" slogan onwards: creationists aren't interested in science, they're interested in propaganda.

 

[wobblycogs]

Newspapers thrive on scandal so the hundreds, probably thousands, of papers that have been peer reviewed and published that support evolution never get a mention in the press. One rejected paper on ID from a crackpot that got a PhD at the University of Pay4Degrees will be headline news. As far as I'm aware there is no credible alternative theory to explain the biological diversity we see around us. ID and plain old creationism don't count as theories because they are impossible to test or at the very least they don't fit with the observations we have.

 

[Digit]

elevating them from "crackpot" to "credible scientific hypothesis",

This is the viewpoint that Jacob espoused on the Guardian article I mentioned, and you have a very valid point Jake. My own view is that I would prefer to let people see what rubbish they spout.
On another forum that I frequent I was asked by the mods about banning an anti-semite as I was known to be Jewish, I said no, I preferrd to let him dig a hole, which he did with, 'Jesus was not a Jew', 'Jews started WW2 etc.'
From there he progressed to 'Nuclear war in India 11000 yrs ago,' and other conspiracy theories.
After Darwinism was, 'Part of the Jewish plan to take over the world,' I think I had proved my point.
I simply suggested that he stopped digging!

As far as I'm aware there is no credible alternative theory to explain the biological diversity we see around us.

And as soon as there is WC science will be prepared to accomodate it. But it will still bear no weight with creationists. IME non of these sort of devotees will be influenced by any amount of scientific evidence.

Roy.

 

[wobblycogs]

IME non of these sort of devotees will be influenced by any amount of scientific evidence.

Agreed, you can't teach someone that isn't willing to learn.

 

[Max Power]

:shock: Flippin heck, thought Id wandered onto a gynaecology forum for a minute. There must be some very strange conversations going on in some of the households on here :-&

 

[Digit]

Watch this space! :lol:

Roy.

 

[RogerS]

I was going to make this my signature but it's a bit too large and so I'll post it here as I think it very apt. The quote is attributed to Kemal Ataturk, the founder of Modern Turkey and has a certain resonance with my own views

I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government; it is as if he would catch his people in a trap. My people are going to learn the principles of democracy, the dictates of truth and the teachings of science. Superstition must go. Let them worship as they will; every man can follow his own conscience, provided it does not interfere with sane reason or bid him against the liberty of his fellow-men

Kemal Ataturk

 

[Digit]

A thoroughly decent agenda IMO.

Roy.