Decline in Valued Contributors???

[deema]

In recent years I have noticed a distinct decline in the ‘old lags’ that made this forum the rich and valuable source of information. I miss the contributions of people like Steve Maskery and AndyT and many others who were always very prolific. There are a number of others who also seem to have dropped out. I then took a gander at an alternative wood working forum, and was greatly surprised to find a gaggle of people who I was missing from this forum!

The other thing I’ve noticed is that the number of threads on any form of wood working or machine enhancement seems to have also declined to a mere trickle. It’s always good to have lively debates about off topic subjects, but the heart and sole of any forum is the depth, quality and quantity of threads related to the subject the forum was setup to serve.

Id like to suggest something is or was wrong, and to ensure the long life, frequent reoccurring visits and ensuring the forum is an enclave of knowledge something needs to be addressed. I don’t know why the ‘old lags’ left, but for such a migration to have occurred has a cause and a symptom.

 

[Argus]

As an 'Old Lag' of some 20 years, I think that you have noticed the obvious.

When this site started, it was a loose affiliation of what it said on the tin..... woodworkers. In the main they were of the 'hand-tools' variety, not exclusively, but all woodworkers, nonetheless.

It has developed a more - how can I put this politely - a more 'diverse' approach to a variety of often conflicting topics and views that can have little in common with hacking bits of old trees about for fun.

Shame, but that's how it is.

 

[artie]

Everything changes/evolves. sometimes better sometimes worse.

Sometimes worse then better again, sometimes not.

Why not set the example with some engaging posts?

 

[Spectric]

Everything goes round in circles and up and down like a roller coaster, unfortunately nothing ever stays the same and times change. I used to visit sites on software, GPS / cartography, microcontrollers and the like but they have all suffered a huge decline, once you could post a problem and you would have answers in hours. Why is the question and I believe two main reasons, the people with a vested interest have aged and moved on but the young have not taken up such interest, just not as hands on as previous generations. Take this further and look around any town and you no longer see the model shops that many of us would frequent which got us interested in making, kids today don't attemp to fix anything and live in a buy everything culture and spend too much of their time on unsocial media and then this is all reflected in the UKs decline in engineering and manufacturing. This then I believe leads on to all the mental problems they experience because they don't have the escape, it was very rewarding once you stood back and looked at something you had made and painted. So sites like the UKW are not exempt, it is like a bucket that is probably empying faster than being filled but that is no reason to give up, we do have some great people with years of experience, Peter Sefton & Peter Millard are two so perhaps the old lags that are no more just ran out of steam and this forum is still the rich and valuable source of information it always was, just with a little more diversity.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

A least one other forum has problems getting wips, in depth projects etc. as well, it's not just this one.

 

[thetyreman]

If you want to get to the bottom of it, it's because of personal problems between members, often grudges and hangups, very little to do with real practical woodworking, it's not just this forum, there are some I used to visit that are so inactive that you'll be lucky if there's a single new post once every three months, bascially facebook killed it off, I see it as a virus on humanity that's draining away everybody's souls and free-time.

 

[Doug71]

Forums like this are not as popular as they once were, times have changed and people show off their work on Instagram etc.

I think this place isn't doing too bad considering, it is hard keeping interested when you have been around for a while as the same things do come up again and again but there is the odd bit of good stuff among it.

I do enjoy following a wip no matter what it is. I have done a couple in the past but it does take time so I tend to just post a couple of photos in the "What I made today" thread. Next time I'm making something interesting I will try to put the effort in.

 

[BucksDad]

Ah yes Spectric, it's the young people's fault Forums are unfortunately now a little bit of a relic from the 1990s /2000s of the web. I love forums having grown up with them but there are now so many more options for people to consider to find outlets online for their interests.

There's probably no need to re-hash why the long time contributors of this forum moved elsewhere, but one thing different between forums and other, types of interest communities on the web is that forums very much became a little community in and of itself and the "Off Topic" section was just as busy (as is the case here and the other place).

One thing I see with newer types of online community is that they have a lot more active moderation to stay on-topic or an inbuilt design which doesn't easily allow that. I personally wish the mods would step in more and stop the two notorious posters on this forum from interjecting the same arguments and points ad-infinitum into almost every thread (case in point, one of them suggested this week that a poster should use pen & paper to edit some 3D CNC models which shows they clearly hadn't read the thread properly and just wanted to make their point).

I don't participate in just this forum but read/engage in a variety of online woodworking communities

1. Reddit (r/woodworking). Projects posted everyday, very strict posting / moderation rules. There are *no* off topic conversations

2. Instagram - why go to the effort of a WIP on a forum when people who are interested can just follow along with photos / stories you can do from your phone ad-hoc and quickly. You can follow along with plenty of talented makers.

3. Facebook groups

These are some of my favourites - because 99.5% of people are using their real name, the quality of the conversation is again higher and they are much more active than forums. FB groups are typically strictly moderated by admins and there are plenty of FB groups which are way more active than here.

Unplugged woodworkers - 35k members. Strictly handtool woodwork posts/discussion only
Woodworking UK - 40K members. Mixture of power / handtool woodworking.
Dovetails & OSB - 1.6k members. This group grew out of Matt Estlea's following. Trends younger which makes sense because of Matt. Plenty of enthusiastic handtool woodwork going on.

All of these groups are delightfully on topic and 99% positive. Part of this is the design of FB groups - long running threads aren't really a thing because you can't keep track of older posts. The search sucks which is the downside meaning it's only good for immediacy.

4. YouTube / YouTube Channel communities

There are plenty of youtube channels which have their own little communities or YTbers who have successfully built their patreon / private member communities. Peter Millard's members platform is a great little community with Peter's behind-the-scenes updates and a small but active forum with on-topic discussion and helpful ideas / replies from everyone. A paywall is a great way to get rid of the trolls

So there are more places than ever to find woodworking going on, forums are just sadly in decline. Now I must go and update my workshop build WIP soon!

 

[MikeK]

I've written this before, and will repeat it again. The Internet is large enough for many workshop forums, so there shouldn't be a turf war between which site is better, larger, or more active. If Site A doesn't meet the needs, try Site B, C, or D...or use all of them at the same time as I do.

I don't think it is reasonable to expect a single site to have all of the expertise or knowledge base to suit everyone. Some sites are less inviting to beginners asking basic questions, or less likely to be open to topics that stray from the local region, but that doesn't imply they are less important or interesting.

For anyone who is interested, we do have a hidden forum called "Pre-Articles" that is available for members to build multi-post project threads without external interruption. This allows the member to create a string of consecutive posts for a project. I used this when I created my MFT-style workbench thread and it is currently being used by another member on what might be the longest duration project thread yet.

Access to the forum is by request only and limited to the duration of the build project. At the completion of the project thread, when the member is satisfied with the content and formatting, the thread will be moved to the appropriate forum for all to see and admire. Access to the Pre-Articles forum will be removed until the member is ready for the next project thread.

 

[Jacob]

Have a look at the figures at bottom of the front page. Currently 1,078 people on line . Makes this the biggest and busiest WW site of all?

 

[MikeK]

Have a look at the figures at bottom of the front page. Currently 1,078 people on line . Makes this the biggest and busiest WW site of all?

Not quite. The numbers are a sliding snapshot of who was active on the site in the previous 60 minutes. If a member visits for one second and then moves on to other things, the forum's persistence setting will keep the member in the list for an hour after the last visit before removing it. As of now, about 625 of those visitors were robots who peeked and then left.

 

[Phill05]

Have a look at the figures at bottom of the front page. Currently 1,078 people on line . Makes this the biggest and busiest WW site of all?

It might show 1k+ but how many are interacting and how many don't want to get into a involved in an argument.

 

[Ttrees]

I was thinking a lot of the activity was by bots,
Why are they here I wonder, is it some algorithmic program to entice newcomers.
It was fairly apparent there were a huge upsurge in newcomers to the craft when the forum got updated, so I guess so.

Must have a look to see if that pre articles forum is more poster friendly,
(in regards to a permanent edit function)
I often find myself wanting to add or update info, as I'm terrible at explaining things
and often revisiting tedious things, making my threads possibly better read in reverse,
so it would be nice to be able to give some warning of tack changing beforehand.

That's the biggest niggle for me, so it is....
and one could speculate a great deal about why this function is disabled, given some of the crew who left, namely the magazine era content creators wasn't happy regarding their intellectual property not being under their control, and possibly subject to being altered or used without their permission.
I can see why they left TBH.

Not sure what value my postings have, I reckon my shed is a bit dark to be making decent posts,
so I ain't too worried about that, besides posting tutes or juicy threads is often just a lazy mans youtube video.

 

[deema]

For me, life is about pushing boundaries and experiences. I never think about how well I’m doing or sit back complacently to admire what I’ve done; for me, it’s all about considering the errors I’ve made and determining how I can do it better next time. Life is about, I believe learning from experience, every day is a school day. If I think my world is just about perfect, the world moves on and I would find myself a dinosaur, left behind, neglected and no longer relevant.

I take the point the world has moved, but like customers (which we the contributors are) for any business, it takes a lot of time to both attract and retain new customers. If a business starts to loose its long term customers surely any conscientious business looks at Itself to determine what it needs to change and improve both to try attract back its long term customers as well as retain the customers it has?

 

[Jacob]

It might show 1k+ but how many are interacting and how many don't want to get into a involved in an argument.

It's still a rough measure in relation to the same count on other forums.

 

[Jacob]

I was thinking a lot of the activity was by bots,
Why are they here I wonder, is it some algorithmic program to entice newcomers.
It was fairly apparent there were a huge upsurge in newcomers to the craft when the forum got updated, so I guess so.

Must have a look to see if that pre articles forum is more poster friendly,
(in regards to a permanent edit function)
I often find myself wanting to add or update info, as I'm terrible at explaining things
and often revisiting tedious things, making my threads possibly better read in reverse,
so it would be nice to be able to give some warning of tack changing beforehand.

That's the biggest niggle for me, so it is....
and one could speculate a great deal about why this function is disabled, given some of the crew who left, namely the magazine era content creators wasn't happy regarding their intellectual property not being under their control, and possibly subject to being altered or used without their permission.
I can see why they left TBH.

Not sure what value my postings have, I reckon my shed is a bit dark to be making decent posts,
so I ain't too worried about that, besides posting tutes or juicy threads is often just a lazy mans youtube video.

Permanent edit is easily misused - it'd be too easy to go back some way and write all sorts of garbage, especially if there was an argument on the go. Very tempting!
One thing you can change is any image from an external URL of your own, where you edit to have different image under the same URL.
Mike's hidden forum called "Pre-Articles" sounds a good idea - long threads can get a bit disjointed. I might have a go; "how to sharpen everything with one combination oil stone" perhaps.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

I think it's been almost nineteen years since I started contributing here. Apart from this forum I only really visit a couple of other woodworking forums, and rarely post at either. I used to respond to questions here more frequently than I do now, although I don't think I could ever have been described as a particularly prolific contributor. As a relatively long term member/user (I believe) I've observed multiple contributors come and go. Some post prolifically for a while; a few weeks, months, or a year or two, then disappear completely, or almost completely. Maybe they just get tired and feel underappreciated, or just burn themselves out posting frantically trying to be everybody's problem solver.

It's true that the same old questions or topics keep rolling around as new users join mostly seeking answers to those same old questions. A good example is anything to do with sharpening, a topic I just can't be bothered to get involved with because it almost always becomes fractious and divisive. Maybe the repetition or recycling of old topics drives some longer term users away through the onset of boredom, but that's just speculation on my part.

So, I guess I'd possibly be best described as an old stager that is now rather selective about the threads I'm either willing or interested in enough to participate, and even when I do get involved I generally prefer to say my piece, maybe respond once or twice again if needed, and duck out altogether once the debate gets long, especially if it becomes fractious. I do, incidentally, really enjoy observing from afar long, bitter, fractious and contentious threads just to observe the sparks fly and to see how long the mods will let it all go before they slam down the shutters.

So, in conclusion, I've managed, so far, to not burn out, and I've probably achieved this through posting relatively sparingly. Slainte.

 

[Ttrees]

!Who'd bother editing arguments though.
It would likely make sense if the OP could retain this ability for real reasons.

Doesn't seem like that's asking for much, in regards moderation or whatever.
ps, Happy new year to ya.

Tom

 

[dzj]

At the risk of sounding like that patent office fella from the early 1900s who suggested that everything worthwhile
was already invented, I think that a forum that's been around as long as this one has, has touched upon quite a few
WW related topics. Starting a thread without being repetitious is getting harder.
I personally enjoy that 'show and tell' thread, the Jokes and as Doug has suggested any WiP.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Surely the sensible way to solve the editing problem is to allow additions/corrections to old posts (and show that they are) but not deletions.
I appreciate of course that existing software won't handle that.