DBT85s Workshop - Moved in and now time to fit it out

[DBT85]

Well this morning I was pledged a further £3k toward the workshop so I pretty much have enough to get it done to the most basic of levels. Onduline roof, normal treated featheredge etc.

A pleasant surprise.

The plan is to shoot higher for a nicer roof and possibly nicer cladding as well bit I'm not as worried about that as I am the roof.

I guess I'd better finesse my plans!

 

[MikeG.]

.........Can you give me an idea of the vault a 2x8 c24 or a 3x8 c24 can give me?

Is the 195x45 you mentioned before for the 1.8m vault C16 or 24? ........

Sorry for not coming back to you sooner. I looked at this briefly a few days ago and thought "too hard for now, I'll come back to it when I have time", and promptly forgot all about it.

To start with the easy one, C16 is fine for any of the structural timber in your roof, even if you have a 3m long vaulted section. Obviously try and select your own timber, and pick the best piece of wood you can for the ridge beam. Actually, that's always a good piece of advice, because a twisted or wavy ridge beam is difficult to work with, especially for the inexperienced, because it chucks out the geometry of your roof.

As to the other one, about length (I presume) of vaulted area for C24 timbers..... we're into structural engineering territory here. Remember what I said about reading the roof as a whole. Well, the length of possible vaulted roof depends on a variety of factors, not just the ridge beam. I am always conscious that someone might come along in 5 years time and read something I said about one context and apply it in another, where it doesn't work. So I'm not going to answer the question other than to reiterate what I said: decide what arrangement you want and we'll make it work. If you want the whole thing vaulted, it can be done, so just decide on your ideal design and don't let the timber drive your decisions.

 

[DBT85]

No problem at all Mike I completely understand.

I'll get my drawings sorted and we can take it from there.

I did find out where ei can buy the dwg files for the plans if I decide to go for planning so I may request a little assistance there at some point.

The sample I downloaded didn't immediately sit square in my head!

Can I ask if there was any reason you went for normal treated featheredge over more expensive options for your workshop? If I recall you got some of your bedec splashed all over it too?

 

[MikeG.]

Feather edged board is traditional for outbuildings in this neck of the woods. Wooden barns 700+ years old are clad with it, and it's been used continuously since. This is a timber frame area. It's also used a little on cottages. There was never any question of using anything else for my outbuildings. I've got 5 at the moment, all clad in FE boards.

 

[DBT85]

Fair enough. Wasn't sure if I wanted to spring for something "nicer" but I'm happy with the appearance. There's little up here for me to compare to as this farm and the others around it is all either brick buildings or steel barns. If you're happy with it to cover that many things in it then I'm fine with it.

Maybe I could buy some of that lovely brick pattern wallpaper and adorn the outside? [FACE WITH TEARS OF JOY]

 

[Inspector]

When we were having out house built I had to put the shop on top of the garage to cut down on costs. Fortunately a walkout basement so no great height to get things in and out of the shop. I wanted 10'+ ceilings but that would have had the roof higher than the rest of the roof on that side of the house. We settled on using scissor trusses. They allowed for the walls to be 9' and the peak to be almost 13' inside. The outside being the same 4/12 pitch as the rest of the house. The gable end didn't need a scissor truss, it was framed normally. Above the walls there was about a foot of room for batt insulation and about 2'+ along the peak allowing for lots of airflow above the insulation to keep the asphalt shingles cool. Inside you still have the vaulted roof effect without needing collar ties spanning between walls, a distance of 24'. They were made by a truss company as is usually done here for roofs of 2x4's, but as your shop is half the size of mine they could easily be made by yourself on the ground and lifted into place by a couple three people. Plywood gussets replacing the steel plates pressed into the 2x4s by truss manufacturers. You would need a qualified person to design them. Another up side to them is they do not need a ridge beam. I like the volume it gives the room and there is lots of height for flipping boards end for end when working on projects.

Something to consider and add to the confusion. :wink:

Pete

 

[DBT85]

I'll have a think Pete thanks for that. I'll most likely stick to what I've seen so many others do and am already at least mildly familiar with though.

Since work csnt occur at the moment I'm taking the time to make a fully parametric and therefore variable workshop in Fusion 360. A remarkable application and a nice test of the brain. Will also be useful when getting my order list together.

Anyone have opinions on doors or rather door positions? One side of a wall or in the middle? If on one side, right on the edge or inset say 300mm or 600mm?

After talking with my father in law were fairly sure we can get the 10odd tons of hardcore (if needed) either lifted over the hedge by a chum with a large tractor or loaded up in the same dumper we'd use for the concrete.
That'll save my back a little as it's a clear 30m from the place bags will be dropped to where the base will be!

 

[MikeG.]

For a start, don't put a door in a corner. That wastes valuable wall space on the adjoining wall (ie you can't put shelves etc there). Unless your wall is really long, then you probably won't put it in the middle, either, because that leaves two short bits of wall either side, probably not big enough for any substantial use (such as a bench location. I would draw your internal layout and get that just as you want, and the door position becomes obvious from that. Also, don't put in a single door if you have large machinery or make larger pieces of furniture.

Here's mine, just to give you an idea of how I set about the design. My doors are about 1450 wide in total.:

 

[DBT85]

Those were pretty much my thoughts Mike. Not right in the corner as you lose that wall on both sides.

I figured maybe 600-700 mm off of one corner and maybe 1500 mm wide. While I don't have any large kit yet, I'd like the doors wide enough for it later or for large stuff to go in and out a bit easier.

 

[DBT85]

Does anyone have strong thoughts on roof overhangs both for the sides/rear and over the door?

Am I also correct in my thinking that the overhangs at gable ends don't need the ridge to continue through to the end and they can just be spaced away from the building with noggins, or is there some other term for them?

 

[MikeG.]

Does anyone have strong thoughts on roof overhangs both for the sides/rear and over the door?

Yes. Take a look at the outbuildings in your area. Agricultural buildings in the main, such as cart sheds, milking parlours, store sheds, barns, and so on. You won't see any of those with a large over-hang at the gables. I really hate big overhangs there, at either end of the building. It's a fashion alien to Britain, more suited to the Alps or Alaska. As to the eaves, again, take your clues from the local vernacular. In the Peak District, for instance, there is virtually no eaves overhang. Fascia boards, if they exist at all, are planted on the face of the wall. In other places there are fairly substantial overhangs. We don't design or build in isolation, and understanding the local traditions are really important. Look, too, at eaves and fascia details on old buildings. You won't see boxed in rafter feet unless they've been added afterwards. Exposed rafter feet are so much more attractive.

Am I also correct in my thinking that the overhangs at gable ends don't need the ridge to continue through to the end and they can just be spaced away from the building with noggins, or is there some other term for them?

Gable ladder is the correct term. As above, you don't need one. Don't have an overhang......saves loads of work and looks so much better.

 

[Sheptonphil]

Look, too, at eaves and fascia details on old buildings. You won't see boxed in rafter feet unless they've been added afterwards. Exposed rafter feet are so much more attractive.

Mike, when you say exposed rafter feet, does that mean no soffit?

I was thinking of just plumb cutting the ends, fix fascia board and guttering and that’s all. No soffit or boarding.

If so, would you just put in insect mesh in eaves gap and keep insulation away from the gap to provide air flow across loft area and ventilate front to back?

Phil

 

[DBT85]

Thanks for the input once again Mike.

I'll probably do it to match to the house with open feet and only a couple of inches at the eaves.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

Does anyone have strong thoughts on roof overhangs both for the sides/rear and over the door?

Yes. Take a look at the outbuildings in your area. Agricultural buildings in the main, such as cart sheds, milking parlours, store sheds, barns, and so on. You won't see any of those with a large over-hang at the gables. I really hate big overhangs there, at either end of the building. It's a fashion alien to Britain, more suited to the Alps or Alaska. As to the eaves, again, take your clues from the local vernacular. In the Peak District, for instance, there is virtually no eaves overhang. Fascia boards, if they exist at all, are planted on the face of the wall. In other places there are fairly substantial overhangs. We don't design or build in isolation, and understanding the local traditions are really important. Look, too, at eaves and fascia details on old buildings. You won't see boxed in rafter feet unless they've been added afterwards. Exposed rafter feet are so much more attractive.

Am I also correct in my thinking that the overhangs at gable ends don't need the ridge to continue through to the end and they can just be spaced away from the building with noggins, or is there some other term for them?

Gable ladder is the correct term. As above, you don't need one. Don't have an overhang......saves loads of work and looks so much better.

Interesting thoughts on overhangs. I think that - here in Sussex anyway - most agricultural buildings would have been thatched, before the industrial revolution, implying bigger overhangs at the eaves and gables (usually half-hipped I think).

Here's an example from somewhere in the home counties I think -

And the more famous:

 

[DBT85]

Mike,

This is what I'm looking at right now, 145x45 rafters, 95x45 ties, centres all matching studwork beneath the top plate. In this drawing it's a 220x65 beam to support that 3m vaulted section.

Apart from adding in the collar ties, what's wrong with what I have? What's missing? Why will it kill me when a sparrow lands atop the ridge?

Lets assume I can get a length of ridge that means I don't need to scarf it.

Reality is that I don't need the vault section for the sake of ceiling height, as with a 25 degree pitch I can have a floor to ceiling of around 2.5m and still have 500mm above the ridge if I wanted to go higher. But it would be nice. So hit me.

 

[MikeG.]

I'll look at that more closely in the morning, but superficially it looks OK. My only comment is that if you want to use the ties as storage, which is presumably the whole point, then they'll need to be 6x2s at least.

If I forget to come back to this, please jog me a along with a reminder.

 

[DBT85]

Thanks Mike, I appreciate it.

Do the collars need to be anything special or just some more 2x4?

 

[MikeG.]

You don't need any collars. Swap the ties to ex 6x2 and keep them in the lower third of the rafter length (bolted with M18), make sure the ridge is in one piece (at least for 2 rafters past the vaulted section) and everything looks fine to me. This is where I enter the usual caveat....I'm an architect, not an engineer. However, your workshop is planned to have roughly the same span as mine, and is built to roughly the same design (albeit my roof angle is 35 degrees).

Getting that ridge beam in place is your biggest challenge, in my view. You need to think this aspect through very carefully. Tip: don't cut it to length until after it is secured in position. Any extra length you can get will help.

edit.... The end pairs of rafters don't need a tie if you build them into the gable. It might suit your purposes to have a tie (I'm thinking of the storage above), but you don't need one.

 

[DBT85]

Thanks Mike, and the ridge size mentioned "should" be acceptable for the 3m span?

I'm surprised but happy to hear I don't need collars.

That's one m18 bolt per end, screws too or don't bother?

I'll have assistance with any jobs that need it so I'm not too worried about that. My bigger worry is getting the small details correct after the framing.

Today I'll talk with father in law about helping clear the site and hire of machinery. We have an account with the local hire firm for the farm so that will hopefully cover those costs.

I'll bang a tie in either end as you mentioned more for the storage. The gable studs above the top plate are only going to be there to secure cladding to so I don't need anything more complicated than regular stud timber with a angle cut on one end?

 

[MikeG.]

As I said, those timber sizes are OK (caveats entered here). You don't need anything other than the bolt for the joists, but sometimes it is easier to get a nail or screw in there first to keep everything aligned before drilling your hole, and there is no harm leaving it there. BTW, cutting threaded rod to length is way cheaper than buying individual bolts. Wind a nut on first before you cut the rod because winding it off again helps clean up the thread at the cut.

Have you got access to a telehandler?