DANGEROUS SPINDLE MOULDER

[Tony Works Wood]

FANTASTIC MACHINES

Hi everybody.
I'm no expert, just love the versatility of these machines.

These machines get the most press for eating fingers.
Treat them with respect, they are a joy to use.

I'd just like to hear what you think about these very versatile machines.
What make/model do you have or have worked on in the past.
Is a router table as good as a spindle moulder for mass production?
What HP/KW motor do you need to prevent stalling of the average sized cutter head.

Thanks Tony

 

[clogs]

I have 2.....
a Kity 429....240v x ? HP ....small enough to get in the van when shop/boat fitting....for mouldings that were just to big for the router table.... .
I also have a 4HP cast iron monster, the name I cant remember *Italien)...been in store for 3 years...part of a multi-purp machine....
Prev machine was a Wadkin EQ with power feed.....
need to buy a power feed for the above.....more money.....!!!!!....lol.....

 

[Yojevol]

My experience is mainly with a Felder as part of my combination machine.
But firstly I'd take issue with your opening statement. If you have enjoyed the versatility in safety and respect you must be fairly expert.
My Felder benefits from the following features:-

• Tilting arbor
• Forward/reverse rotation
• Speed control
• Alternative router shaft
• Separately adjustable infeed/outfeed fences
• Dust extraction incorporated into the fence assembly
• Sliding table with transverse fence and hold down clamp

The only additional feature I can think of on more modern machines is a forward tilting shaft, usually 5deg
I have used the machine in all its various modes but only in small production runs so have never felt the need for a power feeder.
I've used bespoke jigs when a configuration hasn't been possible with the basic table and fences.
Sometimes it is not possible to get a required setup with the tilting arbor but with the addition of an adjustable angle cutter block almost anything is achievable.
Brian

PS this machine will be up for sale soon. Get in touch if interested

 

[deema]

I would strongly advocate that you have a powerfeed not only for a spindle but also for a router table. It keeps your fingers well away from the cutters as well as producing a far superior finish.
I have a Sedgwick SMi4 the largest spindle Sedgwick make. It’s a simple machine without the ability to tilt the spindle. So far, I’ve not found the need to have a tilting spindle. The spindle can be removed and I have both the flush spindle for tenoning as well as a router spindle, the latter I’ve only used once.
I added a sliding table which is great for all sorts of things.
The fence adjustment isn’t great, it’s more by feel than by adjustment. You sort of tap them to get absolutely precision, a feature of most of the older machines. The fences are micro adjustable, but there is slop in the rack and pinion. For single user use it’s perfect, you quickly get used to how to adjust it to pin point accuracy.

 

[Ollie78]

I have a spindle moulder with power feed and I find it pretty much essential for making sash windows and stuff like that, and generally useful for a lot of other things besides.
I dont think its any more dangerous than other woodworking machines, I think the table saw is probably the scariest, or the lathe.

Ollie

 

[Jacob]

The old ones were dangerous with square blocks and French cutters etc.
Later ones not, including the old Whitehill pattern blocks, as long as you know what you are doing and keep your fingers out of the way.
Becomes 2nd nature if you do the obvious: 1 never feed stuff through a power machine with your hand on the workpiece, or you might find you've rebated your hand and got blood all over the work!
2 Always feed with two push sticks, even if feeding into a power feed. You might find that you've mashed up your push stick but no blood will be lost.

 

[peter-harrison]

I used to work with someone who remembered using a spindle with square blocks that was so dangerous that they had built a cage to protect the rest of the work shop from the flying cutters!
Another person I worked with lost 2 1/2 fingers to a square cutterblock.
I used to have a Sedgwick spindle which was fine but a bit basic. I now have a Moretens which has a tilting, reversing spindle and a sliding table. I wouldn't be without it! Tilting and reversing means that you can use safety blocks in a more versatile way- and safer too, as you can have the work better supported.
A power feed is a must for productivity and safety.
A router table isn't a substitute for a spindle- it does different things mostly. There's a bit of overlap but not much.
All machines have the capacity to harm you. You must have and retain the greatest respect for them. You may think that after the 100th time of using them, you know it all and can relax a bit. The machine doesn't remember and doesn't care.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

1. I'm no expert, just love the versatility of these machines.

2. These machines get the most press for eating fingers.
3. Treat them with respect, they are a joy to use.

4. What HP/KW motor do you need to prevent stalling of the average sized cutter head.

In response to the points I've numbered above.

1. Agreed. They are versatile.

2. True, particularly from a historical perspective what with square head blocks and French heads, both now obsolete and long gone (hopefully) in any professional environment. I've seen people working square head blocks with the added complexity of mounting them above a dumpling and ring fence for shaping compound curves, e.g., stair handrails: a truly jaw-dropping experience to watch someone undertaking such a task, and noisy as hell to boot. I may be wrong, but I think dumpling work is now pretty much banned, or certainly highly frowned upon.

3. True.

4. ~5 - ~7.5 HP should cover it for long runs of heavy duty industrial work, including straight runs and working curves.

As to other issues or questions you raise my experience is with quite a wide range of spindle moulders from small and large Wadkins, SCMI, Felder, Hammer and a couple of other brands the names of which escape me now, with power ranging between about 3 HP to 7.5 HP, and complexity ranging from basic to sophisticated.

Nowadays, with square heads and French heads pretty much out of the equation, the main cause of safety issues are the machine's versatility. Take a table saw or planer/thicknesser for comparison. Without diminishing the ability of these machines to cause injuries if used irresponsibly or ignorantly, there's little complexity in their use compared to a spindle moulder. A table saw rips and cross-cuts wood: set the blade height/tilt, fence(s) and stops right along with the guards and cut the wood, with push sticks if appropriate. It's similar with planers and thicknessers: their only job is to flatten, square and thickness wood, again with appropriately set guarding. These machines are therefore relatively simple with limited learning to operate safely. And a mention should be made about suitable dust extraction, which applies to all machines, of course.

A spindle moulder offers the woodworker a wide range of operational possibilities, e.g., straight runs, tilted blocks, sliding tables, ring fence operations, planer head work, bearing mounted blocks, a multiplicity of moulding profiles (whether standard or custom made) jigs and fixtures, false fences and plunging through, offset fences, Shaw guards, power feeders, and so on. With a spindle moulder there are a lot of both interrelated and discrete operations and possible set-ups that a user really needs to understand and be proficient at to work in relative safety. Basically, to use a spindle moulder to its full potential an operator needs to have a lot more skill, experience and knowledge about the multiplicity of operations and setting the machine up than someone using simpler machines such as the aforementioned saws and planer/thicknessers.

Others may disagree, but the above is my take on the topic. Slainte.

 

[TRITON]

I used to work with someone who remembered using a spindle with square blocks that was so dangerous that they had built a cage to protect the rest of the work shop from the flying cutters!

There was a case a number of years ago of a joiner working one who was hit on the head by a flying cutter while feeding it.

Killed on the spot.

There is no doubt that moulders are dangerous, and anyone suggesting they aren't, shouldn't in my mind be allowed anywhere near one.
But they are an important and invaluable part of heavy construction, window,door manufacture, as well as basic cabinetry.
We had a nice SCM one, a bit older(probably 1980's) 5 speed, tilting head, and power feed. I have to say on it though the shaw guards were quite poor, not that robust(like anything it ever going to stop a big cutter coming out lol, ,but as pressure guards I felt they were flimsy. Not like the big wadkin i used to use. Proper kit that was. Very robust hood guards and pressure thingies.

On the SCM, the boss took off the top of his index,middle and ring fingers(to the first joint) when using a panel raising bit,making moulded pediment.
Admittedly in defence of the machine, the boss, while used to machinery was more designer(entrepreneur) than cabinetmaker, so while he could use things, he'd never done any HSE approved training and insisted of working without guards or feeder(in his defence he is American )
I wasn't in the workshop at the time or I'd have shouted blue murder at him and fitted the guards for him or did the work myself. But the story is one I speak about often, and that is you can't approach this type of machine without knowing the basics at least.

 

[peter-harrison]

I've been using spindles for 35 years and never heard of a dumpling! What is it and what does (did) it do?

 

[Sgian Dubh]

I've been using spindles for 35 years and never heard of a dumpling! What is it and what does (did) it do?

Dumplings were/are made of wood and resemble an inverted Christmas pudding (dome shape) with a small flat surface on the top. A hole bored through the centre of the dome allowed the spindle to pass through. The dome itself had wooden bearers or a board passing across its wide base that could be bolted to the spindle's bed to hold the dumpling in place.

In mentioning a dumpling earlier, my memory failed me somewhat. I recalled a square headed block on the spindle and a ring fence, which is incorrect. It was a long time ago, but on reflection I think the head used to profile a compound curved handrail was either a slotted collar or a French head, almost certainly the latter, with, I think, the spindle itself acting as the guide against which the wood was held as the curved blank passed by the cutters whilst being held firmly down on top of the dumpling - it looked almost like semi-free-handing a long curvy almost snake like piece of wood against the cutter. It didn't look very safe! I vaguely recall the job required two or three different tooling set-ups to get all the profiles, and had to be done in the right order so that for the last profile there was still a bit of the original basic curved handrail blank with what started as the two edges and a top face trued to the curving bottom plane that formed the bottom edge to push up against the spindle. It sounds complex because it was.

I didn't see all of the job done from beginning to end because I worked in the cabinet shop and this work was done in the wood machining shop which I visited intermittently. What I did see was enough of dumpling use to give me the heebie-jeebies. On a side note, every now and then the wood machinist (old fart and absent bits of his fingers, needless to say) would set up a square head block for some moulding or other that they'd probably been knocking out on and off since, well, who knows(?) maybe the late nineteenth century, and I think that's why my memory conflated the banshee like howling square head with the dumpling. I can't say I took much of a shine to the idea of using a square head block, and luckily was never asked to do so. Slainte.

 

[johnnyb]

this is a great video about French heads and dumplings by a guy whose been bitten by one.

 

[johnnyb]

it's great because it tells you the advantages with one huge caveat.

 

[TRITON]

French head

oo-er

 

[peter-harrison]

OK! Interesting but a definite avoid

 

[Sgian Dubh]

OK! Interesting but a definite avoid

Agreed. Slainte.

 

[johnnyb]

agree wholeheartedly about the dumpling but he goes on to talk about how he cut the handrails(which is in essence the important bit. the French head only applies the moulding. he does this using a dumpling type fence on a bandsaw relying on resisting the downward thrust to cut these curvaceous beauties in relative safety.

 

[Jar944]

I wouldn't be without at least one, and preferably more than one. I currently have 3. 5.5 (tiwan import 511 machine), 7.5 (invicta ti-14, Brazilian made clone of a scm t160) and 9hp (casolin f-90.) Two have sliding tables (511 & f90) and one tilts (ti-14). I've only stalled the 5.5 hp 511 (once) and that was user error with the power feeder speed and a rather hefty cut with a pair of tenoning discs.

Ideally I would like to have a older martin, scm (or even a GOMAD) with the side tenoning table, rather than the front in table slider. That said I have not used a side table machine as they are exceedingly rare over here, so im just going off what ive heard.

 

[Matt@Nearfield]

Love a spindle, but theres not many machines that run at similar hp, things go wrong very very quickly,. next most dangerous thing in the shop after the humble chisel imo... but considerabky more 'bitey'..

 

[RobinBHM]

Here’s my tips:

when starting up after putting in a block with a new set of cutters, stick a lump of say 6” x 6” timber in front. cutters fitted wrong cone out on start up.

when doing a trial cut on an offcut, put in a screw in the top face about an inch from the end - then when trial feeding, if the bit of wood goes past the start of the infeed fence the screw makes it easy to back off.