Damascus Steel Plane Blade

[bugbear]

.........It is possible (just) that he has bought all the kit on the back of Youtube income. But (somehow) he went to Mississippi, aged 13, to take a course with (famous blacksmith) Brian Brazeal. That speaks of capital, and the bank of mum and dad is the obvious source.....

And? It sounds like you hold that against him.

A poor kid with identical talent wouldn't have the same access. Just sayin'.

BugBear

 

[MattRoberts]

I think one of the key things about being an internet presenter is fairly obviously how you choose to present yourself. This bloke has clearly opted for a high marmite factor, which is a bit silly because if the the reaction on here is anything to go by, this clearly limits his appeal and therefore the number of people he reaches. It's glaringly obvious that his internet persona is superficial i.e. something which he adopts purely for show purposes - there's no way he acts like that over a cup of tea at the breakfast table. Compare and contrast with e.g. Richard McGuire, Peter Parfitt or Treebangham (the latter being mentioned in the review section). There is zero superficiality with these gentlemen and I suspect that their manner will put hardly anyone off.

The sad thing is that his persona is so (insert adjective of your choice) that for many of us we are not prepared to battle through it to able to judge the worth of what he has to say. "Your loss", you might say and nothing wrong with that. On the other hand I can see no reason why one must be tolerant of absolutely everything on offer. I suppose it all boils down to - in my case at least - being prepared to take the possible loss because I'm not prepared to tolerate what I see as an irritatingly infantile and false persona.

I think it's actually the other way around, and the "many of us" you mention is actually "the vast minority". You have to bear in mind that someone who has half a million subscribers often equates to multiple times that amount of people who watch the videos but haven't yet subscribed. He has videos with 1.4 million views and below.

Peter Parfitt, who you gave as an alternative example, has less than 30k subscribers and his highest viewed video is 230k.

The vast majority have chosen, and they choose people with the presentation, editing, style and exuberance of people like Alec Steele and the samurai carpenter.

There is definitely an "old duffer" theme running through here - come on guys, lighten up and embrace young people actually championing craft work

 

[Cheshirechappie]

"A poor kid with identical talent wouldn't have the same access. Just sayin'.

BugBear"

From his website, he started out with a charcoal pit furnace in the back garden, and a piece or railway rail for an anvil, a gift from a blacksmith he met at a country fair.

He's only just moved to his new workshop, the previous shop being a tin shed up a back-alley somewhere. The move and new workshop were financed by his business earnings. That's documented, along with the move itself, in his recent videos.

Maybe his parents helped him with his course in America when he was 13. Which parents wouldn't help out their children where they can? However, building the skill, the Youtube following, the merchandising, the courses he runs....his work, as far as I can tell.

Just sayin'...

(Edit to add - Ashley Iles started out with no capital whatsoever and no backing from anybody else. All he had was an apprenticehip in patternmaking and an idea. His first workshop was a 10 foot by 10 foot basement space rented in Sheffield (Solly Street). He had to teach himself how to forge and grind, and learn where he could from who he could. Later, as his business grew, he moved to larger premises - and the rest we know.

You don't necessarily need significant financial backing to make a success of an enterprise, but you do need a lot of energy, hard work and sheer bl---y minded determination.)

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I have no doubt whatsoever that the guy has a talent, but I just found him too infuriating to watch. As others have said, it's YouTube and young people would rather watch someone shouty and in your face than an extremely competent old man plodding away methodically.
It rather reminds me of a something a musician friend said when I commented how easy one of Leonard Cohen's backing musicians made the instrument look - have you any idea how many thousand of hours he's practiced making it look that easy?

 

[D_W]

I am afraid you may be showing signs of early-onset-dufferdom Mark . I am going to get my teenage sons to watch it tonight and will report back with an alternative yoof-view.

To make your experiment even more useful, you might like to get them to watch a Tubalcain (MrPete222) video as a comparison. He's at the opposite end of the metalwork video spectrum - ex school teacher, slow, repetitive and really clear and useful. He's made hundreds of YT videos and has 155k subscribers. (Including me.)

https://www.youtube.com/user/mrpete222

I think the people catering with content are always going to be on the lower side vs. the people catering with flash.

Youtube has a formula for success, which generally involves drawing in people who are not actually going to do what you're presenting - but presenting it in a happy way that makes them feel like someday they could.

The youtube formula also involves a huge amount of editing and production, which isn't much fun unless you like editing and production.

 

[bugbear]

Youtube has a formula for success

YouTube has a large enough audience that multiple types of content can find an audience.

Abom79 has 150,000 subscribers, and fast paced he isn't.

Keith Rucker (a friend from OLDTOOLS) has100,000 subs, and he's nigh to stationary.

BugBear

 

[D_W]

Youtube has a formula for success

YouTube has a large enough audience that multiple types of content can find an audience.

Abom79 has 150,000 subscribers, and fast paced he isn't.

Keith Rucker (a friend from OLDTOOLS) has100,000 subs, and he's nigh to stationary.

BugBear

I guess that's not clear enough. You can't make a living off of 150k subscribers. You can probably make a living off of half a million (for now). 150k or so level used to be enough for people to make quite a bit of money.

The path to generating a lot of views is quite clear, and it doesn't involve focusing on the content. It involves "collabs", production, promotion, focusing on the title more than the content, etc. You have to draw in more than just the ardent folks on your topic.

Making videos for a living doesn't sound like much fun to me, so it's not something I've looked at to do it (who would want to do all of the editing, and pushing videos when you really don't have anything to offer?), but more as a matter of figuring out which videos and creators to avoid. "collabs" and things of that sort, create almost nothing, but they are a way for promoters to try to harvest subscriber groups from each other, and to find one topic, and make a whole set of videos for several pools of users. I just can't get into that, but for someone like the blacksmith mentioned here, if you read comments for just a fraction, you find that the group is sort of that type of group. For a kid 19, he's quite talented, but I'd be interested in historical reproduction or creation of something that was really at the top of a trade, and not just art objects.

Few people would be interested in those things, though. I'm sure his irons don't match a Ward iron, despite looking more interesting. The geometry isn't refined. when he makes the chisel, same formula - flashy damascus, but the top of the chisel art exists with a chisel with a forged bolster and very delicate edges while retaining flatness - that is much harder, and much less interesting looking.

Just my opinion, but sharing what you know on youtube and ignoring the people demanding well-produced videos (they're just looking for entertainment and not knowledge), is sort of like a better than a forum forum, because you can show something.

Charlie and David C can tell me that I can't plane a board flat or keep it flat with through strokes, and it takes ten minutes to show it happening (twice in the case of the discussion on here). I could do it 100 times and the results would be the same. If I only posted that I could do it, nobody believes it (fine, it doesn't make it false just because people don't believe it). If I post a video, there's not a whole lot to debate. If I say I can plane plywood without risk, all I have to do is actually make a video of it. A discussion on here floats into the ether in a few days and is nothing but argument.

If I wanted to try to make money and expand viewership on youtube, it would have to be by getting away from the concrete. Yelling at the camera, exaggerating, clickbait titles, e-begging on patreon and all kinds of other obnoxious stuff. Sounds gross. Right now, people like me can still post videos and keep them ad free (which means no money, and no real drive to make trash, and no viewers who are just looking for entertainment) - i hope that doesn't change, but it's not my choice.

 

[AndyT]

I recently learned of the existence of sites which analyse publicly available YouTube stats and give some idea of the earnings by channel. I looked at socialblade.com.

I've no evidence of how accurate or inaccurate it is, but I assume it's better than guesswork.

For Alec Steele, it estimates annual earnings at £15.1K - £241.8K - which is admittedly a rather wide range, but not negligible at either end of the scale.

https://socialblade.com/youtube/user/alectheblacksmith

There's plenty of scope for comparisons with your own or your favourite other channels.

 

[D_W]

Figure that the high end of that range is reserved for topic channels where advertisers will pay a lot. Not sure blacksmithing fits into that (maybe it's for stuff like channels reviewing designer purses).

I went and looked at one of steele's videos to see if he'd gotten onto the train of ebegging (selling shirts, patreon, etc) and he has. That's part of the formula that I was talking about - farming the members. There are channels with fewer subscribers where the channel owners have learned to farm the users for revenue not related to adsense, etc.

That's just the way youtube has gone, and it's not like you can't go out and find videos, but I usually get enough of the subscriber farmers pretty quickly because the videos are overproduced and you can't really learn much from them. That's just my opinion - it's clear that the people working those channels know what they're doing and they're attracting viewers and are good at it, and then beyond that, they're good at getting additional revenue from their viewers.

But the trade is then that making videos becomes an obligation, and you start seeing things like wrangerstar where the guy is (literally) a former jeep parts salesman acting like he knows what he's talking about, but he knows little about anything other than having been in debt (according to his own description). And he ends up making videos like showing falling a back-leaner with a farm jack - something that will get someone killed.

I saw that there as a recent blow-up about Sellers giving away a plane if you sign up for his channel and then surrender commenting rights on your channel to a service that he is using. I have no idea what they'd do with someones' channel, but Paul is also a viewer farmer, and the fads that arise from his channel seem to come and go quickly.

Personally, I just wish more people would go out to their garage when they have something to share, turn the phone on, talk to it a little bit about what they're doing, and put up a video. Unless you have a day job and an agreement not to post anything, there's little to lose. Someone could make fun of you, but that's more a reflection of them than you.

 

[richarddownunder]

Well, having made a few (dozen) knives (no damascus) I stumbled on and watched a few of his vids and although I may be an fairly old codger, I enjoyed them - nice to see some enthusiasm, the video editing is quite cleaver in places and he is hilarious at times - and at least he is safety concious - it's not completely reckless like some of the stuff on you tube. I suspect he'll have a TV show at some stage and be earning more than all the rest of us put together and good luck to him I say.

What I did find scary was at 4.45 in the plane making video following. Is this really dodgy table saw technique or am I just a wus (with all my fingers still intact).

Cheers
Richard

 

[D_W]

Presumably, he's hoping for the TV show, and not a life of actually making things day to day. He does quite well for someone 19, and though I rarely watch his videos, I did watch a few when he was making a giant pile of hammers.

I don't suspect guys like Peter Ross have much to worry about in terms of mastery of the trade, though. Not really into the whole pattern steel thing that people refer to as damascus, but it's all the rage lately, and it goes all the way to razors (where it makes little sense).

 

[richarddownunder]

Presumably, he's hoping for the TV show, and not a life of actually making things day to day. He does quite well for someone 19, and though I rarely watch his videos, I did watch a few when he was making a giant pile of hammers.

I don't suspect guys like Peter Ross have much to worry about in terms of mastery of the trade, though. Not really into the whole pattern steel thing that people refer to as damascus, but it's all the rage lately, and it goes all the way to razors (where it makes little sense).

Ive visited a local guy who makes damacus knives. They can look pretty spactacular but its so expensive it'd cost something like NZ$500 just for the metal for a decent knife, whereas a bit of 12C27 cost more like $30. Here is one of my efforts. No forging here, just a bit of grinding on a linisher...

 

[Phil Pascoe]

The steel doesn't have to be expensive- my blacksmith friend has made stunning blades from leaf springs, old files and chainsaw chains, things like that.
It works as long as you have materials of different hardness.

 

[D_W]

Presumably, he's hoping for the TV show, and not a life of actually making things day to day. He does quite well for someone 19, and though I rarely watch his videos, I did watch a few when he was making a giant pile of hammers.

I don't suspect guys like Peter Ross have much to worry about in terms of mastery of the trade, though. Not really into the whole pattern steel thing that people refer to as damascus, but it's all the rage lately, and it goes all the way to razors (where it makes little sense).

Ive visited a local guy who makes damacus knives. They can look pretty spactacular but its so expensive it'd cost something like NZ$500 just for the metal for a decent knife, whereas a bit of 12C27 cost more like $30. Here is one of my efforts. No forging here, just a bit of grinding on a linisher...

Looks fabulous, and very practical!

 

[Jamesc]

Just my 2p worth.
I enjoy watching the likes of Alec, it is far better than most of the offerings on TV. If I see another so called celebrity clawing for fame just because they eat some bugs I think I will scream (I usually do).
I look at Alec and similar as entertainment with topics akin to my tastes, it is also good therapy when I can't get into the workshop. I happily subscribe and like his videos if it helps him make a living and pay for the content so I can enjoy it.
I also subscribe to much smaller channels where I turn for in depth information. Clearly these guys are not making a living at it so in several cases I support them through Patreon.
My view is I get far better value selecting to watch these videos even if there are links to others or blatant plugging of merchandise. It is no worse than watching a commercial TV channel.

My only problem with Alec Steel is - envy. He has the opportunity, energy and skills to make a living at something he clearly enjoys. I on the other hand work at something I am good at so I can afford to do the things I enjoy.

James

 

[MikeG.]

........I don't suspect guys like Peter Ross have much to worry about in terms of mastery of the trade, though..........

How good was he at 19?

 

[D_W]

........I don't suspect guys like Peter Ross have much to worry about in terms of mastery of the trade, though..........

How good was he at 19?

I have no idea, but most of the guys at Williamsburg were pretty good pretty early on. Not a lot of them just turned 21 or something and decided they wanted to be Craftsmen. I'd imagine Peter Ross was probably swinging a hammer already at that age, or doing something similar.

I know George (who was the instrument shop master and later toolmaker) was making entire guitars long before he went to college, in isolation more or less, too. Strange thing for someone of that age (12 or 13 or something) to decide that they'd try to track down supplies to make guitars and start making them in earnest with a block plane and a single synthetic sharpening stone.

Maybe someone else here knows Peter's back story. I don't.

This topic sticks in my head as I was looking for a knife with kamaji yesterday, the craze for pattern welded stuff where it really makes little sense, and in this case, the blacksmith's detachment from making the best tools possible. One of the two things I watched Alex present (along with the hammers) was a large japanese chisel that was blocky and pattern welded on the back. The ura was misshapen and while the chisel was very pretty in an artistic sense, it should've been made with wrought iron and the ura should've been made correctly. The consequence, if the chisel is to be used, is that it can't be tapped out, and it will be much harder to sharpen. I suppose if the recipient actually uses it, they'll end up having to power grind off most of the hagane (hard layer).

Such things as I'm talking about aren't interesting for an entertainment, but a young peter ross was laminating irons to wrought that were intended for use. I would be more interested in seeing someone who really worked through the details and got them right, but there is no money in that. Perhaps at 19, you don't have the sense for why those details matter, and you haven't been around long enough to know that you'd better copy something good until you understand why it is the way it is. Things like that are pretty minor until you make something intended for use, but it's certainly defensible to say that Alex's stuff really isn't intended for use, and in order to keep within the attention span of a lot of people who have none to begin with, he's not going to be able to make 10 chisels and really refine each one. The average viewer would prefer the first if it's pattern welded, and get themselves tied up if they tried to understand the difference between acid etched wrought iron and pattern welded steel.

 

[n0legs]

How good was he at 19?

He's American Mike.
Nuff said :wink: :lol:

 

[D_W]

How good was he at 19?

He's American Mike.
Nuff said :wink: :lol:

Doubt it has anything to do with nationality (especially given that the states hasn't been the protector of traditional craft as far as I can tell). The kind of spark we're talking about is an individual thing. When someone wants to spend their time smashing metal instead of chasing girls.

I thought this was interesting enough to look up somewhere and saw that Peter's first class was in 1970 (the first that he attended) and that he later went to get training in design (something that might benefit Alex, and lots of other youtube gurus). If you believe Peter is 66, then perhaps his first class was at age 19. I don't think he's that old, of course.

Pretty hard to determine anything other than opinion if Alex keeps going, though. If he never gets into the nuances of historical work and keeps making pattern welded stuff, perhaps he'll be regarded in the same light as Bob Kramer (who can sell knives for stupid prices, and I'd think that most people wouldn't have a clue why that is - me included).

 

[rafezetter]

I lasted 3 seconds... and that was with the sound off. :-(

3 seconds with sound on.. WOW just wow.