Cyclone + Festool MIDI for Makita 2012nb planer

[Molynoox]

I have a number of power tools and all are working 'reasonably' well with my Festool MIDI for dust collection, despite them all having different port sizes:

My Port Sizes

• Festool MIDI 27mm hose, Int.23mm, ext.tapers from 33mm to 36mm
• Makita battery Planer 45 int, 50 ext
• Makita battery track Saw and circ saw 35 int, 43 ext
• Bosch GCM8 mitre saw 45 int
• Makita battery router 37 ext, 32 int
• Festool sander tapers 29 -> 27 ext
• Makita bench planer (2012nb) 67 int, 74 ext

I have just picked up a Makita bench planer and it has a 75mm port on the extraction hood. I am aware that small bore shop vacs are not really suitable for planers amd so I havent even tried connecting it, even if it did manage to pull the chips I think it would just fill the bag too quickly and become an annoyance.

I don't want to buy a Camvac style 100mm extractor, so I am now thinking of a cyclone setup which I can use with the Festool MIDI, which was part of the long term plan anyway.
Here is a quick sketch showing my rough thought process:

The cyclone unit would need a 75mm inlet for the planer

My questions:

1. Will the Festool MIDI be suitable for driving the cyclone with a 75mm inlet?
2. Can I somehow have the cyclone setup such that it connects to the 75mm planer but also all my other tools with much smaller port sizes?

thanks
Martin

 

[Bingy man]

I have a Henry type shop vac + cyclone for many of my small tools ( small diameter dust ports ) and it works fine with a 45mm approx hose . My bigger and more powerful twin motor (. N V 750 ) is used for my table saw b/ saw and my nb2012 planer with a 60mm hose .I’ve recently upgraded the container due to imploding anytime I got a partial blockage so not had time or the project yet to test it . . Imo I’d keep the festool for the smaller Tools and consider a stronger more powerful vac for the planer . Of course any member that has the festool extractor set up as you intend may know better but again imo I’m not sure it will cope . The nb2012 can produce large amounts of mainly chips especially if you are sending large timbers through it ..

 

[Molynoox]

would like to bump this one as still wondering...
has anybody tried to run a 75mm hose into a cyclone, driven by a shop vac only?
I don't want to have to buy a second vac just so I can use my thicknesser

 

[LancsRick]

Have I done it? No. But from a theory perspective I don't see it working - small vacs work on low volume high pressure approach whereas extractors move high volume at low pressure to shift chips.

So the small vac isn't going to shift the volume of air needed unfortunately.

 

[Luckosaurous]

Have I done it? No. But from a theory perspective I don't see it working - small vacs work on low volume high pressure approach whereas extractors move high volume at low pressure to shift chips.

So the small vac isn't going to shift the volume of air needed unfortunately.

Agreed. I’ve also not tried it, but I would have thought that widening the bore of the pipe would make it low volume low pressure which isn’t much use at all.
Additionally adding a cyclone will significantly weaken the suction.

I would have thought something like this would be a better option Fine Filtration Dust Collector | Next Day Delivery

 

[Hsmith192]

63mm or less for vacuum extractors
100mm or more for chip extractors.
I have both because they both do different things in the workshop

 

[Molynoox]

63mm or less for vacuum extractors
100mm or more for chip extractors.
I have both because they both do different things in the workshop

The bore on my thicknesser is 67 internal. So if I used a hose that fitted inside that then in theory it would be under your 63mm.

So it should work?.....

 

[Molynoox]

Agreed. I’ve also not tried it, but I would have thought that widening the bore of the pipe would make it low volume low pressure which isn’t much use at all.
Additionally adding a cyclone will significantly weaken the suction.

I would have thought something like this would be a better option Fine Filtration Dust Collector | Next Day Delivery

This is a really handy link, thanks.

 

[Oli]

I have recently added a small removeable hopper and dust cyclone to my MIDI.

I don't have a planer/thickneser, but I do use it with my table saw with a 63mm ID hose and it works much better than expected.

 

[Bingy man]

I have a number of power tools and all are working 'reasonably' well with my Festool MIDI for dust collection, despite them all having different port sizes:

My Port Sizes

• Festool MIDI 27mm hose, Int.23mm, ext.tapers from 33mm to 36mm
• Makita battery Planer 45 int, 50 ext
• Makita battery track Saw and circ saw 35 int, 43 ext
• Bosch GCM8 mitre saw 45 int
• Makita battery router 37 ext, 32 int
• Festool sander tapers 29 -> 27 ext
• Makita bench planer (2012nb) 67 int, 74 ext

I have just picked up a Makita bench planer and it has a 75mm port on the extraction hood. I am aware that small bore shop vacs are not really suitable for planers amd so I havent even tried connecting it, even if it did manage to pull the chips I think it would just fill the bag too quickly and become an annoyance.

I don't want to buy a Camvac style 100mm extractor, so I am now thinking of a cyclone setup which I can use with the Festool MIDI, which was part of the long term plan anyway.
Here is a quick sketch showing my rough thought process:

View attachment 172610
The cyclone unit would need a 75mm inlet for the planer

My questions:

1. Will the Festool MIDI be suitable for driving the cyclone with a 75mm inlet?
2. Can I somehow have the cyclone setup such that it connects to the 75mm planer but also all my other tools with much smaller port sizes?

thanks
Martin

As you have the festool then for £20-£40 you can simply add the cyclone . A few relevant fittings and a few meters of hose won’t break the bank . Build it with a suitable container and give it a go . If it’s not successful with the nb2012 it will still work with all of your small tools . Also if set up correctly it’s the container that should collect the chips not the dust bag .I’ve just checked my Rutland shop vac and after sev years of use inside and outside I cleaned the filter ( minimal debris) and fitted a new bag ( nowhere near full ) but I bag in 3/4 years is nothing .
Rutlands Limited
https://www.rutlands.com › products
Dust Separator Kit | Next Day Delivery


This cyclone dust collector kit contains everything needed to create a cyclone collector from a large container. Ideal for high volume dust generating power

 

[Sideways]

Here's something to think about.
This is the air flow vs suction graph for an Ametek Lamb single stage vacuum cleaner motor.
It is a so called tangential bypass design and a decent 1200W motor. It is 145mm diameter and the inlet into the turbine itself is 43mm
This isn't the motor inside a festool shop vac but it is similar enough that the graphs will have the same shape and similar numbers.

The graph shows :
As you reduce the bore by fitting a narrower hose / partly blocking the end of the hose, suction goes up and airflow goes down. Obvious right. We all feel this every time we use a vacuum.

The motor works best with an effective inlet of 23 to 30mm diameter. In this case it produces it's maximum 187 to 193 air watts.

With an undersize bore, anything less than 16mm, the motor is choked. It's making lots of suction pressure but moving little air and again the air watts have dropped right off.

With an oversize 48mm bore, bigger than the 43mm inlet to the turbine itself, the airwatts are down to 60, less than a third of when the hose is properly matched to the motor. Suction is also down and the airflow is maxing out around 48 litres / sec (x2.12 = 102 cfm).
Fit a bigger hose and the cfm isn't going to increase by anything meaningful. The hose gets bigger, the speed of the air slows down, 102cfm stays the same but the likelihood of chips settling in the hose increases.

If you look at the table, it seems to me that around 30mm ID hose is the ideal. You have 77% of the maximum airflow the turbine can make and more than 4x greater suction. It's no surprise that vacuums are supplied with hoses around 27 to 32mm inside diameter. They are the best match to the turbine and get the maximum air Watts out of them.

 

[Sideways]

And as a quick rider to the above, single stage vacuum cleaner motors move more air, 2, 3 and more stage motors are able to make more suction so they can drag the air through longer runs of pipe like in central vacuum sysyems for houses, but their airflow is generally less than equivalent single stage designs so even an expensive festool shop vac uses a single stage motor.
Most shop vacs have single stage motors of similar power and performance be it Festool, Nilfisk, Numatic, whatever.

From the graphs you can realise that attaching a 100mm dia hose to a vac with a single motor really doesn't make sense. The 3 motor model at a stretch, but not a single or even a twin. 100mm hose is 3 to 4x the diameter, 9 to 16x the area of the hose that best suits a single 1200W motor.

 

[Molynoox]

Here's something to think about.
This is the air flow vs suction graph for an Ametek Lamb single stage vacuum cleaner motor.
It is a so called tangential bypass design and a decent 1200W motor. It is 145mm diameter and the inlet into the turbine itself is 43mm
This isn't the motor inside a festool shop vac but it is similar enough that the graphs will have the same shape and similar numbers.

View attachment 173119

The graph shows :
As you reduce the bore by fitting a narrower hose / partly blocking the end of the hose, suction goes up and airflow goes down. Obvious right. We all feel this every time we use a vacuum.

The motor works best with an effective inlet of 23 to 30mm diameter. In this case it produces it's maximum 187 to 193 air watts.

With an undersize bore, anything less than 16mm, the motor is choked. It's making lots of suction pressure but moving little air and again the air watts have dropped right off.

With an oversize 48mm bore, bigger than the 43mm inlet to the turbine itself, the airwatts are down to 60, less than a third of when the hose is properly matched to the motor. Suction is also down and the airflow is maxing out around 48 litres / sec (x2.12 = 102 cfm).
Fit a bigger hose and the cfm isn't going to increase by anything meaningful. The hose gets bigger, the speed of the air slows down, 102cfm stays the same but the likelihood of chips settling in the hose increases.

If you look at the table, it seems to me that around 30mm ID hose is the ideal. You have 77% of the maximum airflow the turbine can make and more than 4x greater suction. It's no surprise that vacuums are supplied with hoses around 27 to 32mm inside diameter. They are the best match to the turbine and get the maximum air Watts out of them.

What a brilliant answer.
Thoroughly enjoyed reading that and it now makes complete sense.
Thank you!
Martin

 

[imageel]

Agree with Sideways analysis - I have a Jet DC-100a 1.5Kw chip extractor which I converted to a cyclone using a couple of 220l steel oil drums and it just about copes with the chips from my old 10inch planer thicknesser - that's with 100mm tubing.
The cylcone itself, ramp etc contribute to some flow loss and am sure if the flow was low enough as would likely be the case in your use-case that the velocity within the cyclone would be too low for it to work effectively -so most ending up on the bag or whatever is on the end of the impeller.
Like a lot of old kit - and some modern stuff too, my planer isn't really designed for effective chip extraction so the vacuum losses along the way are considerable, but nothing a quick hoover up after use with the trailing hose sorts out.
Given the huge number of variables involved, why not try it out 1st - with a bit of cardboard, gaffer tape and a little ingenuity you could knock up a temporary hose adaptor and give it a try?

 

[Hsmith192]

The bore on my thicknesser is 67 internal. So if I used a hose that fitted inside that then in theory it would be under your 63mm.

So it should work?.....

I think when it come to thicknessers, you get a lot of larger chips- something which can clog up on a smaller pipe. Also, a vacuum is much better at transferring finer dust so in terms of thicknessing I really would suggest getting a chip extractor.

 

[Molynoox]

I have recently added a small removeable hopper and dust cyclone to my MIDI.

I don't have a planer/thickneser, but I do use it with my table saw with a 63mm ID hose and it works much better than expected.

View attachment 173099View attachment 173100

View attachment 173103

Wow that's a cool little adaption!
Nice work!

I'm interested in how the hopper is attached, does it just slide in?

 

[loftyhermes]

I have the Makita thicknesser and use it outside the shed, much easier to sweep up after using it, and put the shavings in the garden recycling bin.

 

[Molynoox]

I have the Makita thicknesser and use it outside the shed, much easier to sweep up after using it, and put the shavings in the garden recycling bin.

I like to do everything inside, it's warmer and it keeps the noise contained. But nice idea

 

[Oli]

Wow that's a cool little adaption!
Nice work!

I'm interested in how the hopper is attached, does it just slide in?

Thanks! It slides up from the bottom with a friction fit, and a couple of thumbscrews keep it there.

 

[Molynoox]

Thanks! It slides up from the bottom with a friction fit, and a couple of thumbscrews keep it there.

Nice!