Cutting tongue and grooves on a large scale.

[Ransoman]

Hi all,

For my shed project I have decided to clad the whole lot using 150mm by 19mm treated boards rather than shiplap as it is much cheaper and I am told shiplap has a habit of twisting over time.

My local timber supplier showed me a technique whereby 2 of these boards are butted vertrically and then a narrow strip (half a 150mm board cut along its length) is used to cover the join. This seems like a good idea but doesn't strike me as the best or most efficient way to do it.

Rather than covering the join I think It would be better to cut a toungue and groove on each board and lock them together.

Another option would be to cut a rebate in each board edge and lay the boards Horizontally.

What would be the best way to cut these grooves in bulk? I reckon I will have 150 boards to groove and as much as I am looking forward to using my Plough plane, I don't think this is the best way to start. (hammer) I expect I will have to buy a new tool for this. I only have a small circular saw and a Mitre saw. I don't have a router or a table saw (yet )

I have seen some video's but these are mostly from America using a table saw with no blade guard and no riving knife!

Thanks in advance for your help and advice

 

[Racers]

A rebate cut on opposite sides would be the simplest way of covering the join, I did the same thing on treated boards to clad a gate it works a treat.

Pete

 

[morfa]

Can they not supply the boards with the T&G already done? I'd be surprised if they couldn't.

If not a router and a router table would be what I'd look to use. But it'll be a big job.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I think if I wanted a large amount of T&G... I'd buy a large amount of T&G.

 

[AndyT]

It's up to you to choose the method that gives you the best mix of time, effort, cost of tools and economy of timber.

Just setting out some of the many options...

1. Tongue and groove by hand planing
Your plough (whatever sort it is) will do the groove, but making two cuts to form the tongue is not good. You could get a combination plane with a tonguing cutter - Stanley 50, 45; Record 050, 405. Or a woodie tonguing plane which matches your plough cutter. Or a combined T&G plane. The Stanley 48 or 49 are nice.

2. Groove and loose tongue by hand
Select a plough cutter which matches thin ply, about 4mm. Plough grooves on both edges of each board. Cut lots of narrow strips of ply and insert them into both boards. It's as economical as a plain butt joint but will take ages and is likely to be fiddly.

3. Rebates by hand
Cut a rebate to half the thickness by rebate plane. Will take ages but rebates are much less fiddly than T&G for unstraight shed boards.

4. Tongue and groove by power tool
You need an electric router and suitable cutters. Like no. 1 but noisy, messy and probably quicker.

5. Groove and loose tongue by hand
As 2 but use either a router or maybe your circular saw to cut the grooves. (Assuming you can find safe ways to hold the wood and work it.)

6. Rebate by power tool
As 3. You could rebate with an electric plane if it has a suitable fence (a simple metal bracket). Or else a power router though this would be slower. Noisy, messy, etc.

Overall, I think you will discover why the shiplap costs a bit more to buy - it saves time and effort overall!!

(Oh and by the way, machine moulding of bulk timber has been the norm since the 1850s!)

 

[Ransoman]

Thanks for the comments everyone. To my surprise the merchant doesn't do tongue and groove off the shelf. As it is a skill I want and need to learn, I am not put off by doing this myself (and repition is the best way to learn).

I did compare the wood he suggestet to shiplap and to be honest, the Shiplap didn't impress me. It did feel fragile and very "Cheap".

Thanks AndyT for your very detailed post.

 

[morfa]

Are you sure that there isn't another merchant nearby who can do T&G for you? As much as it pains me to say it, do you have a Wickes or similar nearby?

http://www.wickes.co.uk/Products/Buildi ... /c/1000264

I'd recommend using a local merchant where possible, the quality is normally higher than the big chains. Also if you do use Wickes, pick the T&G up so you can check it over and reject all the awful boards they'll otherwise foist on you.

Also Trend do seem to sell a T&G router bit set. So if you had a router table, that should work ok. That would be my route for 150 boards. It'll take a while...

http://www.tool-net.co.uk/p-325871/tren ... tAodwUsAbw

 

[HammondR]

If you have a router it would be quite easy to do a square rebate joint. If you have the right width of cutter you can even do two boards at once - just clamp them together and run the router down the middle of the joint.

Still... you'd have to do it 150 times... And it requires moving around re-setting up between each one.

Better option would be to mount the router in a router table. This can just be made yourself from a bit of MDF or plywood. Set up a bit of wood as a guide/fence and just push each board through.

Table saw would be a hell of a lot quicker in my opinion though as it's removing less material and cuts quicker. Set the saw and just feed all 150 boards through, adjust the saw for the second cut and feed them all through again.

 

[marcros]

you may well find that buying it ready moulded will be as cheap as buying the timber and doing it yourself.

 

[CHJ]

Ransoman , You refer to pre machined timber appearing fragile, I suspect that if you just buy pressure treated timber and attempt to rebate it or groove it in any way you may well be disappointed overall, half thickness rebates or anything greater than 1/3 thickness tongues and groves could well be quite fragile and easily split off unless great care is made in selecting wood samples, part of the increased cost of pre-profiled timber is in the selection of suitable timber (even species) without knots and grain anomalies that may fail.

A lot of pressure treated wood sold for fencing, if that's what you are looking at, is far from natural moisture dry when chemically treated and can have at least a 5% shrinkage factor across the grain when fitted and subjected to summer conditions.

Also, if of any significant thickness there will be a limit to the preservatives penetration and cutting to any significant depth will necessitate recoating the cut surfaces.

My local wood yard actually offers to put it back through the treatment vat with their next batch or get someone to hand treat the odd piece while I wait if they resize anything significant for me.

 

[dzj]

I'd take your timber supplier's advice. The vertical board on board cladding he suggests is very simple and
it works OK.

 

[gwaithcoed]

I made a shed for all of my gardening stuff, mowers,strimmers spades etc. some 8 years ago. I used Wickes gravel boards on a 2x2 treated timber frame. I used the method suggested by your supplier and it has worked just fine. It's standing on paving slabs around which I layed a row of breeze blocks. The roof is strand board covered with felt.. No movement with the joins or the strips over them. I treat it once a year with a mix of Wilko's creosote and old engine oil.

Alan.

Just been out to check. The timber covering the joints is 35 x 10 mm also from Wickes.

Alan.

 

[jumps]

I'm struggling to understand how an additional 50 % of materials (half board overlap) can't be more expensive than basic machined product ie 19mm shiplap or t&g.

 

[dickm]

Don't understand why your supplier suggested butting the boards AND adding a half-board. Following the scheme used for our house (from a Swedish kit) a cheaper alternative is to space the (vertical) inner boards apart by about half their width, then put the outer, full width, piece over the gap. Makes one h*ll of a strong wall and with careful detailing, is vermin and wind proof. No addtional cutting or machining of the timber, and buying fencing board from our local agricultural supplyer, very economical.

 

[Andy RV]

A 1/2" router in a table would do this. However i'd be looking at boards ready to use off the shelf.

If your supplier can't accommodate your needs i'd be looking elsewhere, it's not like you're after hens teeth!

 

[blackrodd]

Shiplap can be supplied in thin sizes, leading, as you say to twisting, in time.
As mentioned previously better quality treated timber is readily available from you're local agricultural supplier, and you can pick you're own, And as long as you're studs are around 600 centres, 18mm stock won't move very much, if at all.
To pick out 150 good boards, source a big momma of a router and T&G cutters, and a router bench then put them through the machine twice, the right way up will be a tall order for a relative beginner.
It may be cheaper to go on yer hols and get someone to do it for you!
Regards Rodders

 

[Ransoman]

Thanks again for the comments and advice. It certainly sounds like I have over-thought this so I will scrap the tongue and groove Idea and the rebates. Definately overkill.

Small miscalculation too. 150 boards is how many I need If I go with the original plan (butted and striped). If I tongue and grooved it would be down to 100 boards. But that is not relevant now.

Don't understand why your supplier suggested butting the boards AND adding a half-board. Following the scheme used for our house (from a Swedish kit) a cheaper alternative is to space the (vertical) inner boards apart by about half their width, then put the outer, full width, piece over the gap. Makes one h*ll of a strong wall and with careful detailing, is vermin and wind proof. No addtional cutting or machining of the timber, and buying fencing board from our local agricultural supplyer, very economical.

This is a great Idea, Thanks, I may go down this route instead

Attached is an example of the cladding I was talking about before. I like the Idea but to me the half boards are a little unsightly. I think full boards over spaced boards would look a lot better.

On the Timber merchants, My local is Midmar Timber center. I would highly recomend them as they have been very accomodating and managed to deliver for me at awkward times. They are also the only local merchants of around 4 that I approached that even bothered to get back to me with my enquiries. They can do special orders of other timber (including thicker shiplap I am sure) but it takes a few weeks to come in.

Oh, and to confirm, it is fencing board that I will be using.

Thanks again.

 

[Jacob]

I think you would be better off with horizontal shiplap. It'll weather much better than vertical boards, or horizontal T&G etc; that's what its designed for. Doesn't matter if its thin as long as its strong enough and firmly nailed to your frame work.
In fact "thin" weathers better as a rule - thin timbers may get wet but also may get dried out again; thick timbers may get water logged and rot sooner.

 

[blackrodd]

+1 for the above. And don't forget, should you go for the horizontal T&G, Fix with the Tongue at the top, helps keep the water out as opposed to the groove gathering rainwater.
Regards Rodders

 

[Woodchips2]

For a shed I'd line with building paper and then use feather edged boarding with a 2" lap. Nail the board along the length ie one fixing per support so the wood can move. This construction came from a chap who made sheds for a living and it worked for me. No gaps even on the south facing side after many years. All you need is a saw and a hammer.

Regards Keith