Correcting a Startrite pressed steel bandsaw table

[YorkshireMartin]

I've had this bandsaw for a while now, it's an old 351s. A lot of stuff is right with it and it seems to have plenty of power and resaw ability, thanks in no small part to the Tuffsaw blades.

The problem is the table, which is one of the cheaper pressed steel jobbies. It has depressions in it (from wear I assume) and I posted about this before. A variety of solutions was suggested, from overlaying plywood, to car body filler.

What I didnt know at the time though, was that it is also twisted. I've just found this out using a laser. It's quite a bit off. As you can imagine, depending on the width of the wood I'm cutting, I can get all sorts of results. Inaccuracies that you just can't really calibrate for. I've been scratching my head over it for weeks until the penny finally dropped and I managed to get hold of a laser to test it.

It's frustrating as the blade tracking and everything else is spot on.

I can't for the life of me think how to solve this. Obviously with a twisted table as a datum, any sort of overlay is going to useless and I can't grind it because it's so thin at 2.5mm or so and the twist is too significant.

I don't think steel like this can be reformed, so I'm not sure what options are left.

I'm considering a full table replacement using 38 or 50mm MDF, but I'm thinking that with the offset mounting point for the table on the saw, the MDF will distort, despite the thickness. I'm still going to try though because its the cheapest option.

Are there any other options out there? For example, what are the chances and likely costs of getting a table made out of cast iron or finding one used that i can regrind? I've never dealt with anything to do with metalwork so before I call a fabricator, it would be good to have an idea of what im looking at.

I only paid £400 for the machine, so if the costs climb too high, I might have to get rid. Would be a shame.

I hope someone can offer a ray of light.

Many thanks

 

[HappyHacker]

Is it possible to use a car jack to try and straighten the table? Failing that can you attach the ply overlay with car body filler underneath to compensate for the twist?

Edit - Or get a piece of steel plate and mount it as an overlay with both filler to take up the twist?

 

[YorkshireMartin]

Is it possible to use a car jack to try and straighten the table? Failing that can you attach the ply overlay with car body filler underneath to compensate for the twist?

Edit - Or get a piece of steel plate and mount it as an overlay with both filler to take up the twist?

I think it would flex back to where it is, its just steel sheet unfortunately. Also I've nothing flat enough/strong enough to act as a "mould".

Someone suggested using body filler and an overlay before for the depressions.

I think it would work, but I'm not sure where it would be possible to get a steel sheet with that level of flatness, or how to test it prior to installation? I could see myself forking out a fair bit for a metal sheet to be custom cut, only to find it's twisted, bent or distorted in some way. It doesnt take much to make it unusable for me as a bandsaw table. I'm trying to work to very fine tolerances :/

 

[custard]

I'm really sorry to hear you're having these problems. I never knew the 351 came in a pressed steel table variant, I've only ever seen them with cast tables. I've been thinking about possible remedies and to be honest I've drawn a blank, if the table's not perfectly flat it'll only do for rough work and flat panels. Of course for most people that's perfectly good enough, it's only cabinet makers using a bandsaw for tenons or veneer cutting who might need better. At least you should't have too much trouble shifting it on via Ebay to someone who will be content with a lower level of accuracy.

 

[YorkshireMartin]

I'm really sorry to hear you're having these problems. I never knew the 351 came in a pressed steel table variant, I've only ever seen them with cast tables. I've been thinking about possible remedies and to be honest I've drawn a blank, if the table's not perfectly flat it'll only do for rough work and flat panels. Of course for most people that's perfectly good enough, it's only cabinet makers using a bandsaw for tenons or veneer cutting who might need better. At least you should't have too much trouble shifting it on via Ebay to someone who will be content with a lower level of accuracy.

Hey custard, hope you're well. I didn't realise they did either, but by the time I'd driven 300 miles to collect it and saw it had been serviced the same month, I thought I'd give it a shot. It's in such brilliant condition now and I really dont want to scrap it.

As you know I'm trying my best to make fine furniture, so I have no margin for error at all really. I need it for tenons and veneers, amongst other things. I've been at this for 2 years almost and I'm very close to having everything properly setup and knowing what I'm doing (to an extent) with each piece of machinery/equipment. It's been a heck of a journey.

The bandsaw is the last one to sort out really and I've been trying to recondition it for ages now. All's gone well but this problem has plagued my efforts. I just can't afford another 5k on a bandsaw. I've outlaid so much already and knowing how this saw is tracking, I don't want to give it up just for the sake of a bolt on part.

I've contacted the main players in Startrite spares also, to get an idea of the lay of the land.

PS. The most annoying thing. If the stock is thin, it will cut a perfectly even 0.5mm veneer (3tpi tuffsaw blade!). Its just once I cross the middle of the table with a significant piece of stock, that it's thrown out.

 

[sunnybob]

In the land of any thing is possible......

think of how concreters make shuttering. Make a 1/2" high shuttering around the table edge, pour in self levelling flooring screed. Once set, smooth it down to your acceptable limits. Then place a 3mm sheet of acryllic over it.

Once the acryllic shows significant wear, replace the sheet.
whacky, but possibly worth a try if the alternative is £5K

 

[Alexam]

HappyHacker has the answer, a steel plate over the top will give you a flat surface o work on. I had a small bandsaw and put a larger tabletop of ply on top and it worked well. Shouldn't bee too hard to find the material and get a slot cut in it for the blade.

Then use a 3 x 2 as a fence if you can't fit the opriginal. It does work well.

 

[heimlaga]

I would replace the entire table with a suitable piece of hot rolled plate. Maybe some 16 mm thick. Have it machined flat if necsessary.

No problem.......I think.

 

[Racers]

+1 on the hot rolled plate.

Pete

 

[YorkshireMartin]

In the land of any thing is possible......

think of how concreters make shuttering. Make a 1/2" high shuttering around the table edge, pour in self levelling flooring screed. Once set, smooth it down to your acceptable limits. Then place a 3mm sheet of acryllic over it.

Once the acryllic shows significant wear, replace the sheet.
whacky, but possibly worth a try if the alternative is £5K

Very interesting you should say that as I discussed that very thing with a mate yesterday. Only came up because I've literally just finished tiling the hall so had some SLC left over. We thought that the self levelling compound would most likely fail to bond to the metal but weren't sure. It would come down to how level it can go and I'm not what tolerance you can work to with it.

Have you managed to do this successfully?

 

[YorkshireMartin]

I'm looking into a having a steel plate made, see what that would set me back.

Does anyone know the tolerance for flatness that I need to ask them to work to? It's twist that or warp thats my main concern rather than surface flatness.

I'm not even sure how to spec the job to a fabricator or how to describe it. lol

 

[novocaine]

tooling plate.
this is typically 16-20mm steel plate with a guaranteed flatness. Ask the fabricator to make it but you don't need it certifying. to be honest though, 16-20 mm cold rolled will be more than flat enough for your purpose.
making a new table is a bit harder, as you'll need to add connection brackets to it, any welding will be a potential to warp the plate.
you could most likely pull your plate flat and use angle to hold it flat enough though. hard to tell without images of the table and fittings etc.

 

[novocaine]

oh yer, second thoughts to add.
if you are getting them to make a plate, ask them to drill and tap a few holes in the corners so you can bolt it to the old table, the table will bend before the plate does.

 

[YorkshireMartin]

HappyHacker has the answer, a steel plate over the top will give you a flat surface o work on. I had a small bandsaw and put a larger tabletop of ply on top and it worked well. Shouldn't bee too hard to find the material and get a slot cut in it for the blade.



Then use a 3 x 2 as a fence if you can't fit the opriginal. It does work well.

Alex how thick is the plate you have on there?

 

[Alexam]

My table-top was a reforced ply, not metal, but it worked well and I made it slightly larger which was a bonus.
Malcolm

 

[YorkshireMartin]

My table-top was a reforced ply, not metal, but it worked well and I made it slightly larger which was a bonus.
Malcolm

Ah yes alex, sorry.

 

[YorkshireMartin]

An update for anyone who's interested. I've had it confirmed that reproduction tables don't exist as a product. So that left me with two choices. Either go for a new bandsaw completely or try to sort this one as cheaply as possible. I'm not good with metal so I decided to have a go at making a new table from scratch out of 38mm MDF.

I'm part way through and the good news is that the mount is able to support the MDF without any sag, even with a slot for the blade. Once braced using the original startrite brace, it should be plenty strong enough. The fence weight might deform things and necessitate additional bracing, but luckily it's a kreg fence, so fairly light as they go.

As it stands, I have 90.0 degrees in all axis and I've tested the MDF for flatness with a long veritas edge and it's perfect.

Due to the kreg fence being side mounted, I'm going to need to rout a dado on the underside, just wide enough for the nut and spanner access. Using screws probably isn't a good idea when the part needs to be removed and remounted fairly frequently. Same goes for the brace, I'll have to counter sink the top to allow for vertical bolts and somehow make sure they dont conflict with the fence mount bolts too. Needs to be done carefully no matter what, as a deep dado will significantly weaken the MDF. I hope the brace is truly flat :?

The top will need attention. I'm considering acrylic but I need something thats going to be very hard wearing and can be replaced with relative ease. Suggestions on this would be appreciated. The fixing is the challenge here I think. I'm currently thinking float glass with 3m industrial velcro.

Heres a couple of shots of the progress so far. I just used coach bolts to secure the original mount to the underside, in my experience they are plenty strong enough.

As an aside, I also took the opportunity to oversize the table slightly, might as well.

Think its time for a beer now. Thanks for all the ideas and suggestions, I've followed up on all of them.

 

[novocaine]

works for me. add an edge to it for extra rigidity. you've got some space behind the blade too for extra supports, the deeper the better.

as for a surface, you could easy enough lay a steel sheet over it (16-20 gauge so only 1 to 1.5mm) and it would outlast me. or go all fancy and put a sheet of stainless on it easy enough to purchase online to your required size. cut it on the saw too.

 

[woodpig]

There seem to be plenty of spares available for Startrite bandsaws, perhaps a replacement cast iron table is avalable to fit your machine? Whilst the table itself may be damaged Startrite have a reputation for making solid well made machines so I wouldn't scrap it as anything you're likely to replace it with could well be of inferior quality unless you're prepared to spend a lot of money.

 

[YorkshireMartin]

There seem to be plenty of spares available for Startrite bandsaws, perhaps a replacement cast iron table is avalable to fit your machine? Whilst the table itself may be damaged Startrite have a reputation for making solid well made machines so I wouldn't scrap it as anything you're likely to replace it with could well be of inferior quality unless you're prepared to spend a lot of money.

No tables are available for it, I've checked with the usual suspects and theres nothing available new. I know what you're saying about replacing it. My machinery is all british and the two endeavours I've had that led to it all being british, involved china and a lot of calls to customer service and months of hassle. Not something I wish to repeat. Maybe I was just unlucky.

When it comes to machinery I'm prepared to spend whatever it takes to achieve the goals I've set myself. I don't like to throw money at problems, but I've wasted so much time pissing about with machinery that just wasn't up to the job, that I've learned my lesson now.


Another update for interested parties.

In the end I took a different approach. I feared dado's would weaken the MDF too much to pursue the original design.

I've had some success today with the replacement build. After a short trip to B&Q for a bit of oak (ouch, dont say it), I milled it down roughly on the track saw, although couldnt plane is (blades at sharpeners) so the mitres are a bit rough. Chop saw was still in calibration despite being moved about, so thats a plus. Anyway, I now have a reasonable frame for the MDF and something to mount the fence to. I made sure the MDF stands slightly proud of the oak frame just to make sure the badly planed oak didnt interfere with anything, doesn't look the best but c'est la vie.

New table is on the startrite table now and is all square except for front/rear tilt which might be a wheel alignment issue. Need to check and correct. Next step is giving it a proper mounting which might be adjustable depending on the outcome of the wheel alignment check.

As an added bonus, just fired up the BBQ with the smoker full of oak chips from the days project, can't get any better than that can it?

Progress so far: