Coronavirus

[Trainee neophyte]

TN,

you're getting at what I was on about. If everybody is a hero for doing what their jobs routinely demand of them, what do you call somebody who does indeed go above and beyond?

I reckon that coppers and firemen routinely have bravery (by the standards of Joe Soap sitting at his computer in an office) demanded of them and with the help of their training they routinely deliver. All the emergency services have my genuine respect but I would bet that most of them would deny being heroes and that would not be done in a spirit of false modesty.

The other thing that makes me wince is the public rounds of applause. I find it corny and a bit embarrassing. However, I respect the right of those who wish to indulge and of course their motivation is sincere but personally I think it is the sort of thing best left to over-emotional foreigners. What does get me though is the notion that people might feel pressured to joining in when they would rather not. I'd rather see the traditional reception at the Guildhall and in similar places up and down the country once it is all over. It would be more dignified and somehow more worthy.

If you were cynical, you might think the public are being intentionally manipulated in order to "pull together", and more importantly to not question the narrative. You would have to be cynical, though. It's almost as manipulative as that awful "Thank you for your service" obligatory obeisance to any member of the armed forces that has become cultural enforcement in America.

 

[Rorschach]

Rorschach you have absolutely no idea and are being deliberately ignorant and obnoxious, :roll: You clearly are an sad individual and I hope you don't have the misfortune to need the services of those you have criticised, it's a shame people like you can't be tattooed " do not resuscitate "

I can't comment on either the police or fire service though I have friends in both professions but I do have a number of close relatives who are or have been in the NHS as nurses, doctors and a heart consultant and am very well versed in the physical danger some of them were exposed to every Friday and Saturday night from drunks and druggies while on duty at A&E. There were many physical attacks though thankfully my family were lucky enough to avoid. Add to that the constant exposure to illness and now the very real risk to their own and family lives just highlights how much rubbish there is emanating from your direction.

Nurses to become qualified have to attend university for 3 years but without the Uni holidays instead of which they have to work on placement in hospitals and NHS community services then, especially in areas outside of London are paid below national wage and in hospitals they work unsociable hours often 3 nights followed by 3 days with only a day to recover sleep patterns, sometimes split shifts as well. All of that after dealing daily with death and serious illness, My wife and daughter found dealing with distraught relatives heartbreaking, I couldn't do that.

You're a disgrace and I'm very grateful for the fact I don't know you as it spares me being ashamed that I did!

That sounds like they are working a tough job and they should probably be paid more for doing it, but I am sorry they are not heroes just for doing it. They made their choice knowing full well what it entailed and they are free to leave at anytime.

 

[Rorschach]

Hang on a minute, one of the great problems with the public climate in recent years is the attempt to close down dissenting voices, usually in a rude and intolerant way.

The point of a democracy is that everybody gets their say as long as they are not lying or being obscene or are advocating illegal action. As far as I can see, Rorschach is doing none of those. We have the right to disagree with him. We have the right to find his views out of order. However, the only acceptable response is to produce counter argument which shows those views to be fallacious (unless one takes the internet option to ignore).

It is currently fashionable to place the emergency services above criticism. He doesn't accept that. He's allowed to just as much as I am allowed to question conferring heroic status on all members of the emergency services.

So how about debating instead of shouting?

Lons, this isn't directed specifically at you. Your second and third paragraphs constitute argument (although I don't think that the first and fourth help in any way) but is rather an appeal to all.

Not getting political but it is exactly this reason why we have people who simply cannot fathom how Brexit and a Tory landslide happened. A whole generation thinks that if you simply insult and ignore opinions other than your own and those expressed by MSM then they simply go away, they don't, they go quiet and pop up at the ballot box instead when it is too late to have a discussion and arrive at a reasoned compromise and understanding.

 

[Nelsun]

I have heard what nurses do on a daily basis for over a decade. I'll not list the horror stories (I could break the internet with their volume) but know this: I would run and hide on a daily basis if I were in their place. That's just their daily grind. I'm sure the same can be said of many professions (police, military etc) too so, yes, I'd call them all heroes every damned day, nevermind now. I'm sure everyone else would to if they heard what their daily work sprung on them.

To say they knew what they were getting in to and they can walk at any time is technically (but only vaguely) true, but is also far to generalised to be of any real note. Anyone having spent any length of time in any profession requiring years of training and / or studying would incur a major financial hit were they to "walk away" as an example. A lot of people have families that depend on their income... I'm sure you can see where this is going.

 

[lurker]

My wife is a nurse practitioner in a medical centre. For two weeks the practice has been basically phone consultation only. She declares she is no where near front line.
The practice has whatsap to stay in contact which she has avoided until the past few weeks , but the chatter now, she finds quite nauseous.
She was pretty disgusted with emotional outpouring by some of her colleagues responding to the clap for NHS last week. The admin staff are apparently lapping it up. Most of them are part time but are using their NHS id to get into the supermarkets at the restricted time.

Having worked in NHS all her life she knows where the front line and risks are, and that she is a long way removed from there.

 

[Andy Kev.]

I have heard what nurses do on a daily basis for over a decade. I'll not list the horror stories (I could break the internet with their volume) but know this: I would run and hide on a daily basis if I were in their place. That's just their daily grind. I'm sure the same can be said of many professions (police, military etc) too so, yes, I'd call them all heroes every damned day, nevermind now. I'm sure everyone else would to if they heard what their daily work sprung on them.

To say they knew what they were getting in to and they can walk at any time is technically (but only vaguely) true, but is also far to generalised to be of any real note. Anyone having spent any length of time in any profession requiring years of training and / or studying would incur a major financial hit were they to "walk away" as an example. A lot of people have families that depend on their income... I'm sure you can see where this is going.

I have direct experience only of the Army: yes you do largely know what you are getting yourself into and yes you can walk away from it (obviously according to the terms and conditions of employment). Yes you can be confronted with potentially lethal situations which to the untrained civilian might appear too awful to contemplate but the soldier is trained to deal with that. Dealing with it does not automatically make you a hero and I never met a soldier who would claim that it does.

It's lovely to be valued by the country at large but let's not get hyperbolic about it.

 

[Nelsun]

It's lovely to be valued by the country at large but let's not get hyperbolic about it.

Absolutely. I'm not exaggerating - apart from breaking the internet which, I'm sure, would cope. And I wouldn't, for one minute, suggest those in a given profession consider themselves as heroic. Let's leave that to footballers

It just boils my water when I see uninformed opinions about what folk think nurses do as they are very often so far wide of the mark. That's not directed at anyone in particular BTW and I shall now descend back under my parapet.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

.... is exactly this reason why we have people who simply cannot fathom how Brexit and a Tory landslide happened. A whole generation thinks that if you simply insult and ignore opinions other than your own and those expressed by MSM then they simply go away, they don't, they go quiet and pop up at the ballot box instead when it is too late to have a discussion and arrive at a reasoned compromise and understanding.

This all assumes that all opinions, however half-arsed/offensive, are equally correct. We're back to Gove and his comments about "experts" again!

 

[Lons]

OK just a brief response then I'm out of this thread as it's going around in circles.

Rorschach.
Unfortunately your chip is showing now as the Brexit comment which I guess most of us knew was there has finally surfaced, it casts serious doubt on your motivation in my book.

If you look at my post you'll note that I did not pass comment on the police as although I can count a number of them as friends from several constables including armed response, a DCI, and a retired firearms expert I have heard the stories from both sides and know that there are abuses of power neither did I comment on the fire service for similar reasons and friends go as high as a retired assistant chief of the county.

My comments were aimed specifically at front line NHS staff who in general put themselves out there working extended shifts often in the current crisis not on the wards they are trained for, without enough PPE and in the full knowledge they are more than likely to catch the virus. If they weren't dedicated they could easily take an option to self isolate for a while on full pay, it's cheating but easy to make that excuse. I'm not saying that hasn't happened but the information I get from my family is that it hasn't whilst I know a number of people in "normal" jobs who have been very happy to stay at home on 80% of their salary which is different to the self employed of course.

There are people I would call heros btw and they are the thousands of retired doctors and nurses who have volunteered to go back and help usually over 60 so not low risk groups

I said once before that this is a war, there is a front line and the troops in this case are the devoted ( and exhausted ) staff fighting the battle. Those of us who refuse to help them by observing advice / instructions or think we know better should be locked up together without support and allowed to get on with it IMO

 

[Rorschach]

This all assumes that all opinions, however half-arsed/offensive, are equally correct.

Everyone's opinions are 100% correct to them, and everyone has different opinions, no two people think exactly the same on all subjects.

However much you think another opinion is wrong though by shutting it down, ignoring it or simply insulting the person who holds that opinion you will do nothing to change things.

 

[sploo]

This all assumes that all opinions, however half-arsed/offensive, are equally correct.

Everyone's opinions are 100% correct to them, and everyone has different opinions, no two people think exactly the same on all subjects.

However much you think another opinion is wrong though by shutting it down, ignoring it or simply insulting the person who holds that opinion you will do nothing to change things.

I agree with both of you completely; and therein lies the problem. Those whose opinions are based on hearsay, emotion, prejudice, and a lack of factual evidence will indeed be certain they're 100% correct. Ignoring/insulting/shutting them down is of course not productive, but the problem is that it's really really hard to connect with someone that's not operating in a plane of reality. It is however, much easier to manipulate them with simple slogans and appeals to emotion - and sadly there are plenty out there more than willing to take advantage.

 

[Andy Kev.]

This all assumes that all opinions, however half-arsed/offensive, are equally correct.

Everyone's opinions are 100% correct to them, and everyone has different opinions, no two people think exactly the same on all subjects.

However much you think another opinion is wrong though by shutting it down, ignoring it or simply insulting the person who holds that opinion you will do nothing to change things.

I agree with both of you completely; and therein lies the problem. Those whose opinions are based on hearsay, emotion, prejudice, and a lack of factual evidence will indeed be certain they're 100% correct. Ignoring/insulting/shutting them down is of course not productive, but the problem is that it's really really hard to connect with someone that's not operating in a plane of reality. It is however, much easier to manipulate them with simple slogans and appeals to emotion - and sadly there are plenty out there more than willing to take advantage.

The problem with what Woody says is who gets to decide which opinions are half-arsed etc? The best line on this that I was taught at school and that I try never to forget is that your opinions are only as good as the evidence you have to back them up. In using the "B" word (I wish he hadn't ) Rorschach has brought something up which is an unpleasant tendency on the part of some folk to be high handedly dismissive of opinions with which they disagree. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with other opinions of course, however, the way to deal with them is by rational counter-argument i.e. the evidence thing again.

I'd also caution about mentioning "planes of reality". Philosphers have been arguing about what constitutes reality for donkeys' years. It comes back to evidence again and assertions, however loud and often repeated, do not add up to evidence and that is something which some people on both sides of the B debate failed to understand.

 

[Rorschach]

Sorry I brought up the B word, I just felt it and the recent election were the perfect illustration of my point. The London bubble and MSM thought they had it in the bag, they thought they knew what the country was thinking and those that didn't agree they thought they could shout down by calling them racist etc. What they didn't realise was that they were existing in a whole different world to a big chunk of the country and they had a nasty wake up call and have no idea how to handle it as they long ago forgot how to have a reasoned discussion.

Not quite sure how that constitutes a chip but oh well. In fact, have I even talked about "B" very much on here?

Oh and don't dismiss emotion too much. Everyday we all make decisions that make be factually detrimental but emotionally fulfilling. We are not Vulcans :wink:

 

[Fidget]

Just to add a different perspective on all this.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/The ... s-we-think

 

[sploo]

I'd also caution about mentioning "planes of reality". Philosphers have been arguing about what constitutes reality for donkeys' years. It comes back to evidence again and assertions, however loud and often repeated, do not add up to evidence and that is something which some people on both sides of the B debate failed to understand.

With "planes of reality" I'm simply meaning opinions that are contrary to all available evidence. Now sure, there are always great scientists who change what we "know"; but they're notable by virtue of their rarity. The issue is the guy that's 100% certain you can cure measles by rubbing your elbow with an aubergine; because his aunt's sister's third dog's boyfriend read it on the internet.

 

[Trevanion]

"I never felt like a hero. I was doing my job, I was ordered to go there, so I went."

Oleksii Ananenko, Chernobyl Reactor Diver.

Saved hundreds of thousands if not millions of lives.

 

[sploo]

Just to add a different perspective on all this.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/The ... s-we-think

Good article - with some fair views. I understand that Germany has very good levels of intensive care beds; so that might partly explain the lower percentages of deaths vs overall infected numbers.

If it is "just" a case that the majority of Covid-19 deaths are essentially it finishing off people who would likely have died in weeks or months from now anyway, then granted, there wouldn't be an overall increase to the death rates. The problem is that it's creating a glut of seriously unwell people that need immediate medical treatment. I think we can all agree that (even if we knew patient X would likely die of other causes within weeks anyway) we wouldn't refuse that person critical care if they presented at a hospital with breathing difficulties - thus the increase on the load on the health services.

 

[Andy Kev.]

I'd also caution about mentioning "planes of reality". Philosphers have been arguing about what constitutes reality for donkeys' years. It comes back to evidence again and assertions, however loud and often repeated, do not add up to evidence and that is something which some people on both sides of the B debate failed to understand.

With "planes of reality" I'm simply meaning opinions that are contrary to all available evidence. Now sure, there are always great scientists who change what we "know"; but they're notable by virtue of their rarity. The issue is the guy that's 100% certain you can cure measles by rubbing your elbow with an aubergine; because his aunt's sister's third dog's boyfriend read it on the internet.

OK but I think that what we can all acknowledge is that there is a tendency in the real world for people to only cite the evidence which supports their case and not the bits which their case can't account for. Your hypothetical example is easily dealt with by producing the known and proven evidence about measles. But - to go on risky territory - consider the assertion that they all voted the way they did because of what was written on the bus. An easy assertion because it is impossible to prove, is highly unlikely to be true (the claim that they "all" were so influenced) and so on, yet it appears to be accepted as an irrefutable truth in some circles. Producing evidence either way would be difficult but the chief point is that it remains unsubstantiated. I do apologise for producing an example related to such a contentious issue but it does make the point about people just asserting as opposed to arguing and ultimately, as Rorschach says, of dismissing other people.

I think we desperately need examples from another subject area. Perhaps creationism would be a good one as it does seem to fly in the face of the accepted evidence.

 

[Rorschach]

Just to add a different perspective on all this.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/The ... s-we-think

Woah, way too much common sense in that article!

 

[Terry - Somerset]

There seem to be two extremes upon which opinions are based:

- driven by data and objective analysis, or
- based upon emotional responses or reactions to events

Most of us sit somewhere between the two extremes - and is the reason why opinions on the same set of observed events can be very different.

I am personally far more influenced by objectivity rather than emotion. But the "B" (apologies) experience really crystallised the extent to which sentiment drives opinion and behaviour.

Politicians know this intuitively. To win votes they need to persuade voters that they empathise with their views - everyones views, not just one set of views. Half truths, selective statistics, evasion etc are their stock in trade - in the hope that everyone will find a "truth" in what they are saying, and they will offend or upset no-one.

To assume both sides of the opinion "chasm" will be persuaded by rational (or even irrational) debate is probably naive. The real task is to find some broadly common ground or actions upon which both can agree.

For CV19 the community needs health care. It matters not that:

- some see the death toll as largely related to those who would anyway have soon died, as for others it is a valued and loved member of the family at risk.
- health care workers are heroes or not - for some it is an expression of gratitude, and may motivate workers through a sense of being truly valued.

The goal is to get the best end result - and in a democracy that means we may not get what we individually want. Understanding what went right and wrong to better inform actions in similar events in the future needs to wait until the current crisis is behind us. Hindsight is a wonderful tool, but right now would be a pointless distraction.