copies

[PAC1]

Windy* miller. Patents are different to mere "original works". As such the law for patents is very complex and the design needs to be registered in order to protect the patent.

 

[stuartpaul]

As someone who is genuinely cr@p at designing stuff I nearly always 'copy' from others.

Sometimes a big chunk and sometimes a smaller chunk. Rarely a full, direct copy without changes in one form or another. Does this mean I've broken copyright?

My stuff tends to be fairly generic as I haven't the skills for the fancy big stuff so on that basis it would be hard to prove that I've directly copied anyway. Always built for myself (or close family) and not yet sold to anyone.

What's the score if you copy directly out of a book on design? Would you suggest copyright infringement on this?

 

[PAC1]

stuartpaul. if you adapt then it is less likely that you have infringed any rights.

If you copy from a design book it will depend who and what the book says. For instance Chippendale and Shereton's design rights lapsed a good time ago if they ever had such rights. With others it would depend what the book is doing for instance if it is a "how to build a table" book with a choice of several designs fully detailed the author can hardly complain when you do as he says in his book.

A less clear example was Sam Malloof he never set down exactly how you make his chairs. You just get snippits. So can you copy his designs? I do not know. Yet plenty did their version (inspired by) his chair.

 

[lurker]

The problem is that although I can come up with many designs, all of them tend to be crap,.

:-k
Well................as I've been turning out crap for 35 years I feel confident that "crap" is now my design right, therefore anyone else who makes crap owes me design royalties.

Please form an orderly queue to pay you dues :lol:

 

[bugbear]

Think they had to go to court to resolve it

BugBear

 

[mr grimsdale]

Personally I think you should always copy, whether it's anonymous, traditional or famous designer. Some of the worst designs, amateur or professional, are due to desperate attempts to be original.
So if St Krenov is your thing don't attempt something "in the style of JK" - it'll be rubbish. Instead go for a direct copy - he did it better than you could.
Ditto "trad anonymous" and "in a traditional style"
It's how most art and craft skills were are taught until subversive ideas about creativity and originality took over, to nobodies advantage.

Also if you copy good stuff you will probably learn something about what makes it good. Eventually you may even come up with good ideas of your own, but it's not essential by any means, why bother?

 

[houtslager]

just my 2p worth - there ain't now't new in furniture design. Its all been done before, though some details may be new, - a chair is a chair and a table is a table/

hs

 

[BradNaylor]

If a client visits a cabinetmaker and commissions him to make an exact copy of a piece which he has seen pictured in a magazine, who is guilty of plagiarism, the cabinetmaker or the client?



Think about it.



The answer, I am fairly sure, is the client.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Brad
There is a difference between just copying something (even for profit) and plagiarism.

Plagiarism is taking someone else's idea/work/design and passing it of as one's own. But you knew that.

S

 

[BradNaylor]

So the cabinetmaker accepting a commission from a client to copy a piece is not in breach of any law...

 

[Steve Maskery]

So the cabinetmaker accepting a commission from a client to copy a piece is not in breach of any law...

I didn't say that. I have no idea.

S

 

[frugal]

So the cabinetmaker accepting a commission from a client to copy a piece is not in breach of any law...

I think it would depend on just how much artistic license the maker was given. I imagine that there is a world of difference between: "make me one exactly like that" and "I really like the look of that piece, can you make something like that (in that style)". But I think that this is now in the territory that you would need a lawyer to advise rather than a bunch of people on an internet forum

In general I think that the idea is that copying bad; inspired by good. Where you draw the line between the two is very fuzzy.

 

[BradNaylor]

Sorry Steve,

I was playing Devil's advocate.

I am just trying to get my head around the niceties of the law. Like you, I understood the law on copying another's work to prohibit specifically 'offering for sale' that piece of work.

Well, as a cabinetmaker working on a commission, at no point has that piece of furniture been 'offered for sale'. Instead, I am being paid to do a job of work for my client. The client is setting the agenda, I am merely following instructions.

The fact is that most cabinetmakers doing my line of work are regularly asked by clients to make them pieces of furniture which thay have found either in a magazine or on the internet. As 'cabs for hire', we generally agree a price and do it. It saves us the time consuming hassle of actually designing anything!

My point is that it is the client, as the person commissioning the piece, who runs the risk of being sued under copyright law. It would be a very different matter if the maker copied a piece speculatively and then offered it for sale to the client.

 

[AndyT]

Copyright and design right both exist. In the UK the rules on fair use (ie for private non-commercial purposes) are less generous to the home copier than they are in the US so beware of what you read on the web. If you copy an extract, that's ok, but a whole thing - no, that's not allowed.

To answer the question about a customer asking you to copy - you cannot claim immunity from doing a criminal act just by saying that you had entered into a contract to do it. (And indeed, a contract to do an illegal act is not an enforceable contract.)

So if you copy another person's design you could be liable for damages or to have the infringing copy seized.

However, most people are sensible and prosecutions are rare as they would seldom be worthwhile.

 

[PAC1]

Brad. If you copy someones design that someone could ask you to account for the profit you made (the amount the client paid you). It matters not that the client asked you to do it and you cannot defend the claim by saying the client asked me to do it. The client may be held to account especially if he provided you with a drawing that you did not know was a copy of someone else's design and asked you to make what is shown on the drawing. However you could put a clause in your contract that the client warrants that he has the right to have the design made and will indemnify you against any claim made for breach of copyright. At least that way you will not loose out.

It is not a criminal act to copy someones design it is a civil action based on the law of copyright.

 

[Windy*miller]

The age of the design is also relevant. Another useful page from the IPO office is

www.ipo.gov.uk/types/design/d-applying/ ... eedreg.htm

which tells you what protection you get for registered and unregistered designs (it's not the same).

Patents and copyrights are a whole different thing and are not likely to be relevant to furniture type designs.

 

[Mr T]

Hi

I think we are concentrating on the legal niceties of copying. Squib's original post seemed to be asking about the ethics of copying designs.

I have never been asked to copy a specific design, although I have asked customers to point out pieces they like in magazines so I can get an idea of there tastes, I then design to that taste. I would be seriously pissed off if I knew a design of mine was being reproduced by a professional for profit. I currently have a customer who I have made designs for an interior and I strongly suspect he is hawking it around local joiners for a lower quote!

As I have never been asked to copy my morals have not been properly tested, but following the principal of "do as you would be done by" I hope I would decline the job.

I see it as a compliment if an amateur copied a design for their own use, in fact I once saw a desk of mine copied in a woodworking competition. However I would contradict Mr Grimsdale, I would encourage people to make to their own designs, some may come out wrong to start with but I think you would learn more from the mistakes than copying. And the buzz is greater if you make something which is all your own.

Chris

 

[bugbear]

And the buzz is greater if you make something which is all your own.

Chris

I think in real life design is unavoidable.

As soon as you make a table a little wider, or change a 3 drawer dresser to have 4 drawers, you have to consider the proportions of what you've done, and make other consequent changes to keep everything in balance.

Unless you're doing 100% mindless copies, with micrometer and vernier in hand - you're designing.

BugBear

 

[mr grimsdale]

... doing 100% mindless copies, with micrometer and vernier in hand ....

It rarely is mindless. That's the point.
It usually turns out to be a voyage of discovery into why it was done one way rather than another. You can find yourself be drawn in to the mind of the originator.
I first discovered this with period joinery. That's what drew me in - realising that the old chaps really knew what they were doing and it was all there waiting to be rediscovered.
The vernier caliper becomes essential in discovering the rationale behind various details.
What is mindless is to ignore well made stuff and to imagine that you can emulate it without detailed cross reference.
You can see the tatty results so often! In conservation work I used to call it "the blind joiner phenomenon" i.e.new work done by someone who simply hasn't bothered to look at good original examples.

 

[AndyT]

I'll add just one example to Jacob's reasoning.

A while back I made some doors with through wedged mortice and tenons. I could have argued that they are not necessary with modern glues, and used loose tenons, blind tenons or something else.

But having copied the trad way I have now learned:

- making wedges is dead easy as you can saw them out of the bit of the tenon you remove to make the haunch

- knocking the wedges in evenly across the whole door gives you fine control over getting it square

- you don't need to leave a door in sash clamps until the glue dries - they are just to help draw it up evenly - once the wedges are in, you can take the clamps off ready to do the next one.


So next time I make a door I shall design it to have the traditional joints.