Converting Rough sawn boards by hand - Try Plane ?

[Anonymous]

In Chris Schwartz's DVD, he makes the proposition that a scrub plane was not really a cabinet makers tool at all, but rather a site carpentry tool for taking the edges off boards.
I followed his advice and got an old wooden Fore plane and use either that or a Record #6 with very cambered blade and deep cut. I use it at an angle to the grain and take diagonal cuts first in one direction along the board and then the other.

This all came for the DVD and works a treat

 

[bugbear]

In Chris Schwartz's DVD, he makes the proposition that a scrub plane was not really a cabinet makers tool at all, but rather a site carpentry tool for taking the edges off boards.

IIRC he puts forwards little historic evidence other than the fact that it seems to work.

(brain cells fire)
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/cSch ... lanes1.asp

BugBear

 

[Chris Knight]

I have just acquired a copy of "Roman Woodworking" by Roger B. Ulrich - mention is made of planes that would clearly fall into the scrub category..

 

[bugbear]

I have just acquired a copy of "Roman Woodworking" by Roger B. Ulrich - mention is made of planes that would clearly fall into the scrub category..

I would welcome any tit bits from that you care to post, or perhaps a review... ?

BugBear

 

[Anonymous]

In Chris Schwartz's DVD, he makes the proposition that a scrub plane was not really a cabinet makers tool at all, but rather a site carpentry tool for taking the edges off boards.

IIRC he puts forwards little historic evidence other than the fact that it seems to work.

(brain cells fire)
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/cSch ... lanes1.asp

BugBear

His 'eveidence' is gleaned from reading much on the subject and actually using the planes a lot. It seems to me that his argument that the scrub, being around the same size as a #4 (a smoother) is not best suited to flattening a board due to it's lack of length, holds true.
I have never used a scrub, so no experience to bring to it, but following his advice works for me

 

[Chris Knight]

Paul,
I have only just got the book and haven't yet read it but it looks very promising. The author is a professor of classics and thus well versed in the academic research necessary to produce such a book. He covers the waterfront from tools of the trade through joinery techniques, foundations, framing and walls, Flooring, Roofing and ceilings, interior woodwork, wheels, furniture and veneers.

The book looks a fairly easy read with an extensive glossary and bibliography. I had a quick peek at the bit on planes to say what I did above - it is plain (no pun intended!) that their tools were remarkably similar to our modern handtools. Their joinery too is instantly recognisable and very functional with a hint of Japanese about them - fairly complex keyed scarf joints for joining lengths of wood for example.

When I get around to reading it, I will try to say a bit more.

 

[bugbear]

[
His 'eveidence' is gleaned from reading much on the subject and actually using the planes a lot. It seems to me that his argument that the scrub, being around the same size as a #4 (a smoother) is not best suited to flattening a board due to it's lack of length, holds true.
I have never used a scrub, so no experience to bring to it, but following his advice works for me

Yes, but all his reading gained him was a quote from the Stanley catalogue.

Otherwise, his reading was the "mysterious incident of the dog in the night". He found no evidence; in fact he found no references!

Clearly a short scrub is not suited to ACCURATE flattening of a board, but nobody has ever suggested that a scrub is a final flattening tool; it's a preliminary tool for badly out of true boards, where it's inaccuracy is allowable, and the short size (and low weight) helpful.

I suspect the answer to the lack of textual reference to "scrub planes" in the English literature is that English workers had (as Mr Spanton has) a graded range of "jack planes". I can say from experience that a "jack plane" with a gaping mouth, and thick cambered single iron moves shavings surpassing well.

BugBear

 

[PaulO]

My 1922 "Modern Cabinet Work" (click for Amazon link) book refers to a "Bismarck" or "Roughing plane" and the illustration shows a plane with a similar configuration to what is currently sold as a scrub plane.

The book says "a single iron plane for taking off the dirt and first rough surface of boards", a diagram is also shown showing the convex blade of what LN/Veritas refer to as a scrub plane.

It describes the process of planing boards as one of four parts:
1) Roughing up stuff with a "Bismarck" before marking out
2) Jack planing to reduce thickness
3) Try planing for finishing surfaces and edges perfectly straight
4) Smooth planing

So now I have found a reference that predates Chris Schwarz's Stanley catalogue, can we put his theory to bed? :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

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[Shivers]

1922. Close to earlier practices such as pit sawing. I'd suggest that a scrub plane would be handy for hand rip-sawn or riven timber but redundant for more accurate machine sawn. That would account for it not featuring much as a significant item like the more widely used and long established adze.
I'm well used to seeing adze marks - well I think that's what they are; a longish (6 to 12") shallow scoop about 2" wide just visible in the right light on the surface of beams and joists. I've not knowingly seen scrub plane marks, which I would expect to be similar but longer.

cheers
Jacob

Think you'll find that most hollow marks are made from common old wooden jack or fore planes that have had the blade ground to a curve,at least this is what i was lead to believe during my making of refectory table tops,--we always had a few shop wooden planes around specifically for this purpose(no need to have a scrub plane) as all that was needed was a different blade profile.
What i should also add is that the soles of these planes had been very slightly curved so as to dig in on the high spots--you would then move on to another less curved profile--it actually made quite short work of what looked like hard going.The aim was to get the old hand planed look on the top with faint pitsaw marks showing through.
I remember working with an old korean guy who made his own planes/blades,--he would make a variety of plane bodies that all took the same blade(as metal was hard to get in old korea),i wonder if this applied to the old carpenters & joiners of yore.

regards.

 

[MikeW]

...So now I have found a reference that predates Chris Schwarz's Stanley catalogue, can we put his theory to bed? :wink:

Well, actually Chris is a bit more savvy than that.

What he was specifically referencing is the Stanley scrub plane's intended or actual use. He would differentiate between Stanley's scrub and the use of heavily cambered blades for stock prep.

Using heavily cambered blades goes a long way back. IIRC, Moxon also describes using heavily cambered blades.

Take care, Mike

 

[Anonymous]

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[Anonymous]

I use a 14 inch jack with a cambered blade, its astonishing how fast and efficient it work's. Afterwards I use other 14 inch jack's with blades set to coarse, medium and fine cut's to refine my surface.

Do these "other jacks" vary merely in depth of cut, or do they have differing degrees of camber as well?

BugBear

Hi Bugbear
I've been away in Birmingham for the last week or so and have only just caught up a bit with the thread's.

My scrub blade is qite severe, about a 5inch radious?? A roll of gaffa tape would sit neatly on the same radius. The others are only very slightly curved, when I say fine medium coarse etc its just the depth of cut, they are easy to alter anyway. But just having one of each available just speed's things up.

I concur with jacob with recyling varnished/painted boards etc, your down to clean wood FAST (too fast sometimes perhaps a lesser radiuos would work for a slightly less agressive stock renmoval?)

I dont see the scrub plane as a flattening tool, only to get through the saw mark's and other surface rubbish, and remove the worst high spot's/wind's etc, and get into clean wood fast. I sometimes use an axe first anyway, then a scrub plane if it is riven stock.

 

[bugbear]

I use a 14 inch jack with a cambered blade, its astonishing how fast and efficient it work's. Afterwards I use other 14 inch jack's with blades set to coarse, medium and fine cut's to refine my surface.

Do these "other jacks" vary merely in depth of cut, or do they have differing degrees of camber as well?

BugBear

Hi Bugbear
I've been away in Birmingham for the last week or so and have only just caught up a bit with the thread's.

My scrub blade is qite severe, about a 5inch radius??

So (just to be utterly clear) you've got a jack body with a heavily cambered blade doing rough prep (i.e. heavy shavings verging on chips)?

BugBear

 

[Anonymous]

Thats about it, its mounted in a 15 inch jack body (unused old stock) from the 50's, not a marples, not sure what make??

If I set the blade to cut on the strong side, the shaving's do become more like small side axe chip's (small split's along the grain), but it is harder work. I like Jim Kingshot's description of a wood jack "takes shavings as thick as a soldier's belt" or something like that (dont recall if he was refering to one with a scrub blade, slight radious or square across??) As you say, for rough prep especially getting down through mobile bandsaw mark's on sawn oak planks etc, where theres lots of kerf like lines across the surface and you just want to get them away quickly as possible. I just move across the surface about an inch at a time similar motion to a metal shaping machine?? Then start work with the others, also sometimes a 22 inch jointer (a beauty, dont ask me what make though, I dont remember :roll: )
And like I said, a few handfull's of those coarse shavings make a great fire starter

 

[bugbear]

Thats about it, its mounted in a 15 inch jack body (unused old stock) from the 50's, not a marples, not sure what make??

If I set the blade to cut on the strong side, the shaving's do become more like small side axe chip's (small split's along the grain), but it is harder work. I like Jim Kingshot's description of a wood jack "takes shavings as thick as a soldier's belt" or something like that (dont recall if he was refering to one with a scrub blade, slight radious or square across??) As you say, for rough prep especially getting down through mobile bandsaw mark's on sawn oak planks etc, where theres lots of kerf like lines across the surface and you just want to get them away quickly as possible. I just move across the surface about an inch at a time similar motion to a metal shaping machine?? Then start work with the others, also sometimes a 22 inch jointer (a beauty, dont ask me what make though, I dont remember :roll: )
And like I said, a few handfull's of those coarse shavings make a great fire starter

What direction are you making the strokes relative to the grain; I find with my pseuo-scrub that diagonal is easiest, and along the grain not good at all.

BugBear (who had photos at the lamented GIC)

 

[Anonymous]

Both depending on the character and grain of each board. I find diagonal easier for a heavier cut, but have to reduce the depth of cut to go parallele to the grain otherwise I stall in mid stroke :lol: :lol: I'm only concerned with getting something like a flat surface with the scrub, the other plane's are for that. Much like a jcb driver with a wide bucket can quickly get a "level-ish" surface for a road or lawn etc by removing obvious humps, but there still needs to be fine adjustments with smaller tools eg shovels/rakes/wacker plate working to a datum line etc to get it properly level?

 

[bugbear]

Both depending on the character and grain of each board. I find diagonal easier for a heavier cut, but have to reduce the depth of cut to go parallele to the grain otherwise I stall in mid stroke :lol: :lol: I'm only concerned with getting something like a flat surface with the scrub, the other plane's are for that. Much like a jcb driver with a wide bucket can quickly get a "level-ish" surface for a road or lawn etc by removing obvious humps, but there still needs to be fine adjustments with smaller tools eg shovels/rakes/wacker plate working to a datum line etc to get it properly level?

Absolutely agreed in all regards.

BugBear

 

[paulc]

smoothing, block, scrub, now which?

So I decided to convert the old wooden plane, (its body indeed is shaped like a coffin as I think bugbear suggested), into a makeshift scrub, and next I'm considering going for a Stanley no.6 Fore Plane from Axminster as its described as performing the dual purpose of "stock removal, as in the Jack, and also the truing up of edges or levelling of wide boards, as with the jointer or try plane" which sounds like what I need.

Is this a good choice?, good make? , I have a stanley smoothing plane which has served fairly well, but as its my first plane I can't compare. Would be willing to go as far as £100 for something better, or less for something of the same quality. Any Ideas?

 

[mr]

smoothing, block, scrub, now which?

An old Stanley no 7 from the bay.

Mike