Confused by dust extractors!

[nicguthrie]

I hope someone can explain something to me.

I've been looking for a dust extractor, along with everything else for my workshop I'm putting together and I've noticed while sitting here with a calculator in my hand, that something doesn't quite make sense to me.

I had my eye on the Numatic ARXP470 for it's portability, the 27 litre container, HEPA level filtration, small dimensions, and the excellent reputation of Numatic. The suction is rated at 2700 litres per minute but I was a little worried by the narrow hose, since I plan on using whatever extractor I get for everything from power tools to a bandsaw and probably a bench top planer thicknesser.

I went looking at the non powertool rated bigger machines at this point and this is what left me a little perplexed. The NV750 dust extractor has excellent writeups and a bigger hose, yet the suction, rated as 150m3 per hour actually works out at slightly less than the smaller machine, which if you convert to similar units, is rated at 162m3 per hour. Yet the NV750 is for virtually any machine in a workshop, and the ARXP470 is intended as far as I can see for hand power tools...

I'd have thought a wider hose alone would mean better airflow for the same rated motor. I'm now torn, as if the first machine will handle a bandsaw, lathe and small P/T - it would also fit in my 9x10 internal dimension workshop a lot easier, and kick about from station to station instead of running piping about and such.

Can anyone give me any advice? I have lung problems (had 20 collapsed lungs and then stopped counting) and have already been through cancer, so I'm pretty concerned about keeping air quality high, especially when I want to turn Yew amongst other things. But on the other hand, I have limited space, and would like to stay south of £300 for the extractor if possible.

Any advice or personal experience is most welcome. I can't buy second hand machinery, it's just not an option, has to be new, but I'm new to the whole field myself so please, drop your tuppence worth here if you would, and teach a noobie something!

Nic.

 

[Chems]

I don't think you'll get far trying to compare or work out airflows. Often the different manufactures are measuring with bags off and things that don't realistically give the figure. I think though the best answer and easiest I can give you is to get a twin or triple motor CamVac which is very near the ceiling of your budget but like you say, you don't really want to scrimp on extraction:

http://www.diytools.co.uk/camvac-twin-m ... keyword%7D

It will work well both with a 100mm hose and with a power tool sized hose. Loads of members have them and rate them. In addition to this I'd also look at getting a fine air filter such as this:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/jet-jet-afs- ... rc=froogle

You can actually make your own fairly cheaply and there are other brands that are less expesnive.

And if you find your CamVac is filling up to quickly and you want a bigger drum then look into a Cyclone or Thein type separator.

HTH

 

[jaywhoopee]

Hi Nic,

As you are considering a planer thicknesser and power tools, you have two somewhat conflicting requirements.

Power tool extraction tends to be high pressure in a small (32mm) hose, whereas chip extraction from a planer thicknesser is all about low pressure, high volume through a bigger hose (100mm or sometimes a little less)

If you want both 100mm and power tool sized hose (which is likely even with a small benchtop planer thicknesser as you're considering) then the NVD750 rather than the NV750 would be the one for you. This has dual motors and claims 300m3/hr.

I ended up getting one with lots of hoses and the wheeled base for just under £400 during Axminster's 40th anniversary sale. They seem to have a similar offer on the "old white livery" version at the moment.

There's some info in this thread on the various options related to "HEPA" (this is a much abused term) in this thread https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/dust-extractor-confusion-t61344.html.

I've also written a brief review of the NVD750 here

Hope this helps

John

 

[beech1948]

or maybe try to buy a used 2 or 3 hp dust extractor with a bag above and below for say upto £120 and connect this sucker to a cyclone from http://cyclonecentral.co.uk/ which would cost £89 although you do have to do the assembly but that should be easy. The cyclone goes inbetween the Dc and the machine.

This might keep you under your budget.

Al

 

[nicguthrie]

Thanks for the tips guys. I had noticed the NVD750, but wasn't sure of the advantage for the money over the cheaper one, thanks for pointing that out. How is it for noise? Being a very small workshop I'm a little worried about overall volume, especially since my workshop is about 3 feet from my neighbour's back window!

I'm quite curious about that Camvac too, I love the simple style, it appeals to my no-nonsense aesthetics, but again, what's it like noise wise? Being a metal drum I could see it being particularly noisy? Also does camvac have a decent reputation? I'm familiar with Numatic from using their vacuum cleaners as a lad helping my brother in law with cleaning jobs, and I know they have a great reputation, just curious at how camvac shapes up.

Thanks for the input, and for not telling me off for not noticing an almost exactly the same named previous thread with similar (but not the same) questions

Nic.

PS, Beech1948 do those things actually work?? They seem too simple to believe! I'd give it a shot, but it'd almost double the space that my dust extraction will take up in my new shed/workshop.

 

[jaywhoopee]

I had noticed the NVD750, but wasn't sure of the advantage for the money over the cheaper one, thanks for pointing that out. How is it for noise? Being a very small workshop I'm a little worried about overall volume, especially since my workshop is about 3 feet from my neighbour's back window!

I've been having a clean up in the workshop just now and refreshing my memory of the noise it makes on its own.

It's certainly louder than my air filter, but I'd say it's no louder than my domestic Dyson DC07 that I used to use before I got this.

It's certainly quieter than the power tools and machines I use it with too.

The motors and exhaust are actually not the loudest part - the air rushing into the end of the small hose is much louder!

By the way I've edited my other post to remove the claim that you can choose whether to run 1 or 2 motors - I must have imagined this!

Hope this helps

John

 

[beech1948]

PS, Beech1948 do those things actually work?? They seem too simple to believe! I'd give it a shot, but it'd almost double the space that my dust extraction will take up in my new shed/workshop.[/quote]

The short answer is yes they do work. Very occasionally a cyclone can be sensitive to certain types of waste but in general they are about 90% effective which is much more than other types of DC.

I use 2xRecord DX4000 one at each end of the workshop plus a couple of "vacuum"style Makitas to use with power tools. One Dx4000 has a Thein Separator attached and the other has ( for last 4 months) an industrial cyclone alongside it which is superb for my new role of cutting up MRMDF.....mucho dust.....

I've decided to add a small outcropping to my workshop to house the cyclone outside for convenience and because it was a space hog.

Al

 

[nicguthrie]

well, thanks for the tips. I've bitten the bullet and ordered a NVD750 for my workshop. Did wonder about the twin motor configuration, would have been nice to be able to run it with one or both, but I'll settle for full pelt all the time if it's not going to wake the dead. I'll keep an eye on the dust levels and consider adding a cyclone in the corner if I have space, if the dust ends up excessive - I don't think I'll be using MDF much and the worst offending tool is likely to be my bandsaw when I finally settle on one.

I've given up on a planer thicknesser for the moment, and I'll practice hand planing or maybe even an electric hand tool planer and see how I go, there's always the work shop around the corner that I may manage to talk into planing wood down.

Thanks again.

Nic

 

[rth]

Axminster are selling these off reduced due to new model, I bought one last week and it is brilliant not to mention very quiet compared to my last set up, easily moved on castors, 850 cm/hr, thoroughly reccommend one........nothing escapes the intake.

http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-ax ... for=200089

 

[jaywhoopee]

nothing escapes the intake.

The problem is that with 30 micron filtering a LOT will escape through the bag and make its way back into the air.

Some of this won't be visible to the naked eye and it won't do you the power of good if it gets into your lungs (either directly or having been disturbed later when you re-enter your workshop without your mask on).

Bill Pentz's site has quite a bit of information on the subject - http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/medicalrisks.cfm

John

 

[Eric The Viking]

Can you wear something, for example like the Trend Airshield system?

It strikes me that you'll struggle to get the air quality you need otherwise. It should let you use a less expensive extraction system, but I don't think you could do without one entirely. The other advantage is as a face shield too, which I"d think would be important, but then I'm not a turner.

E.

 

[rth]

nothing escapes the intake.

The problem is that with 30 micron filtering a LOT will escape through the bag and make its way back into the air.

Some of this won't be visible to the naked eye and it won't do you the power of good if it gets into your lungs (either directly or having been disturbed later when you re-enter your workshop without your mask on).

Bill Pentz's site has quite a bit of information on the subject - http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/medicalrisks.cfm

John

Just read the link, decided to pack up the woodworking it's far too dangerous, to be honest every machine should come with a health warning, it's akin to smoking !! but worse since had you not posted the information I and many others would have continued breathing in toxins, there really should be some kind of legislation involved.
I started to get a very bad none stop cough about a month ago, I continually eject mucas from my lungs, even as I type this post !, frightening.

 

[nicguthrie]

Well, I'm going into woodwork with my eyes wide open on the dust issue. One of my earliest jobs was as a lab tech, so I can be careful of contaminants to an excess if I put my mind to it

I've got the NVD750 on order, goes down to 0.5 micron, saving to add a Microclene to the workshop for a little extra bonus dust removal of what gets free into the air, and I'm undecided between the Trend Airshield pro and a 3M 6700. I'd like one or the other since I find goggles let my glasses steam up, and the sales guy at Axminster scored a good point with me by pointing out that with the face area totally sealed in the 3M, you can sweat like a pig if the workshop is hot, whereas the Trend flows cool air over your face while you work. Tough Choice, £100 in the difference too.

I'll probably vacuum dust and sweep the 'shop around once a week to, for anything that settles. There's a HEPA filter addition to the NVD750 that I may consider in the future, but for an extra £200 odds I'd have to be thoroughly convinced that it was worth the outlay.

I hope your chest clears up rth, if you are sensitive to the wood dust you will react far more strongly, but on the other hand it should stop faster once you stop being exposed regularly. I suspect you may be being sarky but hey, I've known folks to take that sort of reaction to wood dust in the past.

Thanks for the post on the dangers tho John, a lot of it may be a bit OTT but you've made me reconsider regularly using Yew. The stuff's just about lethal by the look of it!

Nic.

 

[Eric The Viking]

you've made me reconsider regularly using Yew. The stuff's just about lethal by the look of it!

Easy: turn it under water - works for Plutonium, I think.

 

[rth]

I hope your chest clears up rth, if you are sensitive to the wood dust you will react far more strongly, but on the other hand it should stop faster once you stop being exposed regularly. I suspect you may be being sarky but hey, I've known folks to take that sort of reaction to wood dust in the past.

Thanks for the post on the dangers tho John, a lot of it may be a bit OTT but you've made me reconsider regularly using Yew. The stuff's just about lethal by the look of it!

Nic.

Hi, of course was laying it on thick, I really enjoy working with wood, it is so very satisfying, I have just re-lite the candle, I am building a rather large house from trees .
I was not joking, however, about the cough, I had begun to suspect the wood dust but never realised just how bad it was.......the next bit is a little graphic but no way round it and it may alert others.....
I have been constantly coughing up phlegm, so much that I can easily fill a bucket every day, I have been puzzled because it is devoid of colour, ie.. if it were an infection it would be green/brown (sorry for the mental picture) but it is not, since reading the previous link it is obvious that my lungs are trying to remove the invisible dust I have been inhaling every other day, it;s never too late to learn......thanks for the education....I have just ordered a face mask and will be addressing the extractor next................

 

[Eric The Viking]

I'm sorry to hear that.

I've been pondering this for some while, long before this thread. My grandfather's sawmill was fragrant with wood, but I never heard people coughing etc., even though there was little or nothing in the way of extraction (just piles of shavings all over the place!).

I now think it's because the machinery was different: thicker saw blades with bigger teeth, slower cutters, etc.And, they didn't do finish work, so no sanding nor routers.

There were very few man-made boards: chipboard was coming in, as were pre-laminated surfaces, but the melamine/formica was thick and usually applied after it was cut to shape. There was plywood and oiled hardboard too, but that was about it.

Generally, there wasn't the same fine dust that we tend to make, and I think it made a difference.

 

[beech1948]

Get thee to a medic and pronto. Take a sample.

It may not be exposure to wood dust at all. You would need several to many years exposure to create that sort of effect. A bucket of phlegm a day is extreme.

Al

 

[rth]

Will do.........

 

[rth]

On the subject of dust, something I must confess to being under-informed about until I came on this forum, I have noticed the huge amount of very fine dust that has covered any and all things which do not have the use of legs..
There is one piece of kit that surpasses all others in dust collection and containment, it is that which is shown below, I purchased it for use with my vacuum cleaner to prevent the awesome daily hairloss encountered from my springer spaniel from clogging the filters. It is brilliant, I now use it on some of the smaller wordworking tools with great effect.
As you can see in the pic, I obtained the ubiquitous ex spice container and had it shortened by a local business engaged in plastic welding, in its original form it was too large for my needs, the container is very strong and will no doubt still be in use when I am pushing up fungi !, larger vortex units are available and I will be looking at coupling one to the axminster dust collecter.

....

 

[JakeS]

I have been constantly coughing up phlegm, so much that I can easily fill a bucket every day, I have been puzzled because it is devoid of colour, ie.. if it were an infection it would be green/brown (sorry for the mental picture) but it is not, since reading the previous link it is obvious that my lungs are trying to remove the invisible dust

For what it's worth: I had a similar problem. I don't know if it would literally fill a bucket, but I was coughing stuff up to clear my throat almost constantly. Similarly, I figured it couldn't be an infection 'cause it was colourless and clear. I wondered if it might be wood dust and stopped doing any woodwork for a while, but it didn't make any difference.

In the end, it turned out to be acid reflux. I never noticed much acid, I only noticed the mucus - apparently the sinuses produce a lot of it to counteract the acid. My doctor put me on lanzoprazole, which reduces the production of acid in the stomach (or something!) and the problem has more or less gone away completely. (He also sent me in to the hospital to have a gastroscope, which confirmed that the valve at the top of my stomach is dilated and that's allowing the acid to move back up the oesophagus. Apparently something like 1 in 10 people have this problem and it's not that uncommon to not notice it for years.)