Comments please on Kitchen Table

[Roger]

cleaty wotsits if dry etc. in fact better as the breadboardy thingies

Now Jacob - are you just trying to cover all languages, reference sources and phraseology ? :wink:

 

[cutting42]

This is proving an excellent thread and I am getting a great education here, thanks everyone.

Largely due to DaveR's comments, I did a non cleated/breadboard version and I quite like it. I actually think it adds to the chunkyness of the top and it will certainly cut down on the amount of work involved!

I have a handmade oak dining table (not by me but a chap called Charles Matts from Norfolk/Suffolk somewhere) and that is an oval top using quarter sawn oak planks. That has not move a mill in over 15 years I think I will try and get quarter sawn planks and keep it simple.

 

[SketchUp Guru]

Well, I think it all works together better without those thingummies on the ends. As you say, less work, too. Quartersawn oak would be nice for this but since movement of the wood won't really be visible now, you wouldn't need to use q-sawn.

Do remember that that you still need to take movement into consideration when attaching the top to the aprons between the legs.

 

[woodbloke]

Alf wrote:

One aspect that may, or may not, be relevant is a kitchen table will get crumbs, crud etc on it in the normal course of use - will a breadboard end/cleat/doohickey/whateveryouwanttocallit not provide an extra place for such crud to be lodged? Just a thought.

Making the assumption that the cleats are made on the table ends as DaveR suggests in his drawing, which is a far better method than I used, there will still be differential movement in the timber which is allowed for in the construction. However, shrinkage no matter how small, will still take place on the end cleat, and as the joining area between the cleat and the end grain is dry and will become wider over time a gradual build up of crud and grime will accumulate in the crack....eventually i think it will look like a black line across the end of the table at each end. Continual washing and cleaning of the table top will force more crud into the crack and I feel it will eventually look.....unpalatable - Rob

 

[promhandicam]

I'm not going to get into the cleat/breadboard thing as I thought cleats were a) used on cycling shoes (UK) or b) football / soccer boots (USA) or c) for tying off ropes on a boat!

my suggestion would be to add some draws to the table - either on the end or the sides - I think that Jacobs table has draws down the side. useful for tablecloths / coasters etc.

Steve (who learnt a fourth definition of cleat tonight)

 

[Anonymous]

Steve- a fifth, I think they use cleats in climbing. :lol:

 

[Shivers]

you bunch of ruffians.



http://images.google.co.uk/images?clien ... a=N&tab=wi

 

[cutting42]

I had to try:

http://images.google.co.uk/images?svnum ... tnG=Search

 

[Shivers]

Anything like this


http://images.google.co.uk/images?clien ... a=N&tab=wi

 

[wrightclan]

This academic paper...

http://cfaonline.asu.edu/haefer/classes/564/564.papers/pierceharpsichord.html

...mentions the use of breadboard end construction in the casework of an 18th century harpsichord. I don't have any idea when the first use of the term breadboard end was used in this context; but it's certainly not an invention of modern mags. As I understand it, the term does derive from its use in breadboards for bread; but it is a traditional technique (with both inherent advantages and inherent difficulties as disputed on this thread) and it is a traditional term (probably Yankee in derivation.) :wink:

Brad

 

[SketchUp Guru]

Thank you Brad.

 

[Shivers]

This academic paper...

http://cfaonline.asu.edu/haefer/classes/564/564.papers/pierceharpsichord.html

...mentions the use of breadboard end construction in the casework of an 18th century harpsichord. I don't have any idea when the first use of the term breadboard end was used in this context; but it's certainly not an invention of modern mags. As I understand it, the term does derive from its use in breadboards for bread; but it is a traditional technique (with both inherent advantages and inherent difficulties as disputed on this thread) and it is a traditional term (probably Yankee in derivation.) :wink:

Brad

that was a hard read & i couldn't spot breadboard--also is this verbatim from an original article or interpretation by the author of this white paper(c2000),the earliest book i could see noted as a ref was 1820,all the rest were from the 1970-90's,i didn't see which ref the description came from.So its a moot point,--probably the difference between the oceans.
All i can say is that in all the books i've read cleats is used as an expression,maybe i've read mostly british books.


Just located it under a slot that mentions one in 1769--as follows,

" The fronts of the cheek are finished with breadboard ends. The breadboard ends to the cheek and spine are merely hardwood pieces inlaid 8mm."

theres something wrong with 8mm being quoted from 1769


regards

 

[mr]

The article says

The fronts of the cheek are finished with breadboard ends. The breadboard ends to the cheek and spine are merely hardwood pieces inlaid 8mm into the outside surfaces.

The articles provenance though doesn't suggest that the term (rather than the technique) is one which was in use at the time of the making of the intruments described. It appears to be entirely the author's own input as far as I can tell (which is,I think, Shiver's point). In the same article other historic terms appear to be presented in italics ie "ravalement" which would suggest that the breadboard term is not thought (at least by that author) to be a historic term.

Having said all that I can quite imagine that it's a historical term from across the pond along the rebate / rabbet lines.

Cheers Mike

 

[wrightclan]

Shivers,

Everything in your above post misses my point entirely on so many levels. I didn't say that the term was in use in 1769. As I said, I have no idea of the earliest use of the term. (But I can probably find references that go back to at least the early part of the 20th century). If I remember correctly, the makers of the harpsichord in question were Flemish, and wouldn't have used the term "breadboard end" or "cleat."


The author isn't a woodworker (as far as I know) and likely doesn't read woodworking magazines. The author is a musical historian. Why would a musical historian (who likely doesn't read woodworking mags) use a term like "breadboard ends" to describe the construction of a part of a harpsichord(if indeed as you contest, the term is a modern invention by woodworking mags aimed at amateurs)? Perhaps it is because the term has become a part of design lexicon (especially relating to woodwork) to such a degree that the author understands the term and believes her readers will understand the term as well.

Brad

 

[Shivers]

Shivers,

Everything in your above post misses my point entirely on so many levels. I didn't say that the term was in use in 1769. As I said, I have no idea of the earliest use of the term. (But I can probably find references that go back to at least the early part of the 20th century). If I remember correctly, the makers of the harpsichord in question were Flemish, and wouldn't have used the term "breadboard end" or "cleat."


The author isn't a woodworker (as far as I know) and likely doesn't read woodworking magazines. The author is a musical historian. Why would a musical historian (who likely doesn't read woodworking mags) use a term like "breadboard ends" to describe the construction of a part of a harpsichord(if indeed as you contest, the term is a modern invention by woodworking mags aimed at amateurs)? Perhaps it is because the term has become a part of design lexicon (especially relating to woodwork) to such a degree that the author understands the term and believes her readers will understand the term as well.

Brad

yep i'll go with that,that makes sense,

i agree --i just checked my fww annuals,breadboards mentioned,no cleats anywhere(this is 1-9),i stopped buyin em at that point.
All i can say is that any shop i worked in never used the b***db***d term,& some others who have worked in shops have also agreed.thats all.
I was also taught the term in college whilst doing city & guilds --so how wrong can that be.Maybe i should go back & tell my lecturer off.


regards.

 

[Anonymous]

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[Shivers]

sez ere in my "Joinery and Carpentry" (Corkhill Dowsett Millar Hayward Duckworth Hancock Bennetts) 1929, glossary;
CLEAT. A bearing block nailed under a beam. Also the wooden cramps used for jointing together long lengths. Also alternative name for a small batten.
I only have a problem with mis-use of a word when the user thinks it is the right word in some technical way, rather than it being the users best stab at finding a word which fits.

chers
Jacob

thanks grimsdale that brought a smile,unfortunately you are quoting from a carpentry book,

ok ok so if theres no term in the carpentry book for the end thingy,& it was called a breadboard in the usa ---what on earth was it called here,now i gotta dig the rest of me books out,thanks grims sigh.

cheers.

 

[wrightclan]

I was also taught the term in college whilst doing city & guilds --so how wrong can that be.Maybe i should go back & tell my lecturer off.


regards.

Umm, Exactly at what point did I (or anyone else) slag off your use of the word "cleat?" You're the one who has been ranting on about the use of the term "breadboard end," as if it's a totally unacceptable term foisted upon unsuspecting hobbiests by evil woodworking magazines. (Just so your clear, that preceding sentence is a bit of intentional hyperbole.)

Brad

 

[Shivers]

I was also taught the term in college whilst doing city & guilds --so how wrong can that be.Maybe i should go back & tell my lecturer off.


regards.

Umm, Exactly at what point did I (or anyone else) slag off your use of the word "cleat." You're the one who has been ranting on about the use of the term "breadboard end," as if it's a totally unacceptable term foisted upon unsuspecting hobbiests by evil woodworking magazines. (Just so your clear, that preceding sentence is a bit of intentional hyperbole.)

Brad

Ok calm down,my lecturer was 70 yrs old & had spent 50 years in the trade,how much more of a reference should i use,should i adopt a usa term just because its in a mag,or should i try to instill some brit trade terms.

 

[wrightclan]

Ok calm down,my lecturer was 70 yrs old & had spent 50 years in the trade,how much more of a reference should i use,should i adopt a usa term just because its in a mag,or should i try to instill some brit trade terms.

How can I make this more clear? I do not have a problem with the word "cleat." I am sure you are perfectly correct in your usage of the term. You however are not correct in your assumption that "breadboard end" is a recent invention of woodworking magazines.

Brad