Comments please on Kitchen Table

[spadge]

The board ends won't move if they are well joined, and dry enough - which means ideally leaving them in the room where you are going to have the table, for a year at least, or drying them under controlled conditions, or take a chance and be prepared to remake the table top after a year or so. Also the top must be loosely attached with buttons to allow movement.
I'd give the table top more overhang on the sides and both table and benches a long overhang at each end say 12". It's fairly traditional and is practical - it makes general movement around the table and benches a bit easier esp if you are stuck for space.

cheers
Jacob

The only time a breadboard end will not move is if the moisture content of the timber never changes over the making and lifetime of the table(and therefore the wood always remains the same size). I think this is a dangerous assumtion to make.
You can leave the wood to season for as long as you like but if the moisture content of the wood changes (because of varying humidy levels with the seasons for example) the table top boards will move across thier width. This movement, because it is across the grain will be more than the breadboard end (which in comparison is moving along the grain) and a step will develop.
That's one reason why I don't like breadboard ends unless they are made in the Green & Green fashion to hide this movement.

 

[Shivers]

The board ends won't move if they are well joined, and dry enough - which means ideally leaving them in the room where you are going to have the table, for a year at least, or drying them under controlled conditions, or take a chance and be prepared to remake the table top after a year or so. Also the top must be loosely attached with buttons to allow movement.
I'd give the table top more overhang on the sides and both table and benches a long overhang at each end say 12". It's fairly traditional and is practical - it makes general movement around the table and benches a bit easier esp if you are stuck for space.

cheers
Jacob

The only time a breadboard end will not move is if the moisture content of the timber never changes over the making and lifetime of the table(and therefore the wood always remains the same size). I think this is a dangerous assumtion to make.
You can leave the wood to season for as long as you like but if the moisture content of the wood changes (because of varying humidy levels with the seasons for example) the table top boards will move across thier width. This movement, because it is across the grain will be more than the breadboard end (which in comparison is moving along the grain) and a step will develop.
That's one reason why I don't like breadboard ends unless they are made in the Green & Green fashion to hide this movement.

Cleats have been used since the word dot to protect /stabilize table ends this really isn't a splitting hairs situation.wether the wood shrinks or not,its still going to be ok as long as they are fixed in place correctly.If you take a look through charles haywards many woodworking books you will see the perfect way to do it,people read to many amatuer mags these days & listen to norm --where-as they should be consulting the great writers of the past. whoever coined 'Breadboard is a perfect example of a not very well read person' Is that one outta fine woodworking or off of norm again.


A bemused shivers.

 

[SketchUp Guru]

http://www.barnfurnituremart.com/larger_image.asp?id=LFBTG603B[/img]

FWIW, the pieces I posted images of on the first page of this thread are Greene & Greene designs.

 

[Shivers]

http://www.barnfurnituremart.com/larger_image.asp?id=LFBTG603B[/img]

FWIW, the pieces I posted images of on the first page of this thread are Greene & Greene designs.

i noticed that--what gets me is all the misinformation that flies around 'dummy tenons' ect breadboards --i real;ly don't care what modern mags suggest at all as most of em are aimed at the amateur market,i'm starting to get a bit disconcerted on this forum as people don't listen to good advice at all --but ramble on about makers like green & green as a reference point (nothing wrong with them but a photo is hardly a refence point for construction techniques)---when the authorities to be worshiped should be the likes of charles haywood ,william lincoln ect----bah


regards.

 

[SketchUp Guru]

Well, Shivers, I'm sorry that you misunderstood my post and thought that I was trying to show a construction method. I only intended the images as illustrations of designs that use breadboard ends and have successfully dealt with the inevitable movement of the wood. I didn't make any statements regarding how to make the joinery.

The Greene's made good use of the breadboard design and the joinery is clearly effective. Most of the pieces that were built to their designs are still around.

There is plenty of information available regarding the proper way to fasten breadboard ends. All one needs to do is look.

As far as the construction methods used in the designs of Charles Greene, they are described in several books. Darrel Peart's book, Greene & Greene : Design Elements for the Woodshop is excellent and although I haven't seen it, Robert W. Lang's new book, Shop Drawings for Greene and Greene Furniture is supposed to be a good reference.

All that aside, I think I'd still rather see Cutting42's table without the breadboard ends or else add them to the benches.

Oh, I'm also sorry you are offended by the term "breadboard". It has been in wide use for a long time.

Oh, and I do have a first edition copy of Charles Hayward's Woodwork Joints and I have read it and referred to it many times.

 

[Shivers]

Well, Shivers, I'm sorry that you misunderstood my post and thought that I was trying to show a construction method. I only intended the images as illustrations of designs that use breadboard ends and have successfully dealt with the inevitable movement of the wood. I didn't make any statements regarding how to make the joinery.

The Greene's made good use of the breadboard design and the joinery is clearly effective. Most of the pieces that were built to their designs are still around.

There is plenty of information available regarding the proper way to fasten breadboard ends. All one needs to do is look.

As far as the construction methods used in the designs of Charles Greene, they are described in several books. Darrel Peart's book, Greene & Greene : Design Elements for the Woodshop is excellent and although I haven't seen it, Robert W. Lang's new book, Shop Drawings for Greene and Greene Furniture is supposed to be a good reference.

All that aside, I think I'd still rather see Cutting42's table without the breadboard ends or else add them to the benches.

Oh, I'm also sorry you are offended by the term "breadboard". It has been in wide use for a long time.

Oh, and I do have a first edition copy of Charles Hayward's Woodwork Joints and I have read it and referred to it many times.

Whoops not aimed at you dave --it was general musings at how much misinformation or half info was being spread to the owner of this thread who simply wants to make a kitchen table ---now he's going to bite all his nails off trying to make his mind up.

your post was fine & i agree with what you said,green & green's methods look fine ---i was merely stating that maybe a reference construction method should be given rather than pics ---i was in the middle of giving it a go to clarify when you posted ---so i carried it on in your post more in agreement with you than not --if you know what i mean!!.
Breadboards is hardly a sophisticated term is it though---i couldn't see myself using that term on a highend table using cleats.
These modern writers are in some ways ruining the trade ---all the trad terminology is going out the widow--The woodworking trade as a result is becoming like the house of babel.

later.

 

[Alf]

One aspect that may, or may not, be relevant is a kitchen table will get crumbs, crud etc on it in the normal course of use - will a breadboard end/cleat/doohickey/whateveryouwanttocallit not provide an extra place for such crud to be lodged? Just a thought.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Shivers]

One aspect that may, or may not, be relevant is a kitchen table will get crumbs, crud etc on it in the normal course of use - will a breadboard end/cleat/doohickey/whateveryouwanttocallit not provide an extra place for such crud to be lodged? Just a thought.

Cheers, Alf

in that case wooden breadboards(cutting boards) with cleats on the end should all pass modern health & safety regs for kitchen use,

regards.

 

[Alf]

Erm, what? Is that total dismissal of the point, dig at Health & Safety, or what? Don't understand.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Anonymous]

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[Shivers]

Erm, what? Is that total dismissal of the point, dig at Health & Safety, or what? Don't understand.

Cheers, Alf

I can't ever remember seeing where dirt getting into any tabletop stopped them being made in all different fashions,

the term breadboard should apply to just that a cuting board for cutting bread.
If the table top is taken as a whole --how can the end part be called a breadboard if it is in fact a strip of wood,--i don't really care who wrote it first or who else uses it--its a complete mudperson/laymans term that should only apply to kitchen accessories--not in a description of table top construction.These modern writers are re-writing woodwork tech as their own purely by using dumbed down terminology.

No alf again a valid point --but when did that ever stop people making tables in this fashion.

 

[Shivers]

Table I made about 6 years ago

Have been able to monitor it regularly as I gave it to my mum.
Sycamore boards joined with plywood slip in slots (stopped so you can't see them at the ends) various widths from 10" and about 30mm thick. Joints still absolutely tight as a drum with no splits or differential movement.
Nowadays you expect things to go into dry, centrally heated houses. If they go in dry they will stay dry and movement will be less than in the bad old days. Still will need button fixings however, to relieve stress from whatever source.
On the other hand - a very similar table which I know of (he copied mine) has cleated (breadboard?) ends which only occasionally line up exactly with the edges of the board. Would have been better without them. Cleated ends perhaps more necessary in a more taxing environment with bigger variations in temp and humidity, or heavy duty use of the table.
cheers
Jacob

agree with you there grimsy--cleats come in handy with either very wide tops or those made with thicker timber,also a consideration is that all older examples were made with no glue what soever--everything was pegged so there was a lot more drift & movement going on--the cleats helped in this situation to hold the table top together, whereas modern day glues have done away with the need --however to still have the look ---you still cant escape the fact that wood still moves --even if it is 2007 the rules of wood still apply--it will shrink & expand.

 

[Anonymous]

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[Shivers]

snip
---you still cant escape the fact that wood still moves --even if it is 2007 the rules of wood still apply--it will shrink & expand.

Yebbut what counts is differential movement - if all moves at the same rate then there is no problem.
Infact my table above showed a lot of movement in the drawer bottoms (10mm redwood boards) but with trad details this not a prob; pull out the nails and tap the board back into its slot.

cheers
Jacob

I know you know ya stuff--that wernt aimed at you that was aimed at the biscuit jointer crowd whom would sling a cleat on with biscuits poly glue ect.& no joinery.---i gotta think my posts thru better methinks.otherwise i'm going to be labeled as a crowbar expert.

 

[Alf]

No alf again a valid point --but when did that ever stop people making tables in this fashion.

Well I wasn't commenting on the basis of fashion or not, but merely putting forward a point the OP might want to consider. Hopelessly on topic in fact...

Cheers, Alf

 

[SketchUp Guru]

No matter what you want to call the end treatment, here's a method for constructing it. It is based on the method used by Garrett Hack. Glue only on center tenons. Slots in outer tenons. Wooden pegs from below don't show on top. The mortises for the outer tenons are slightly wider than the tenons.

Perhaps there is a language difference that is clouding the issue here. In the US a cleat would be a piece applied to the underside of a planked table top cross grain-wise. Enlarged screw holes would be made in the cleat to allow for movement of the planks. Cleats of this sort would be seen on planked doors and blanket chests as well.

 

[Shivers]

No alf again a valid point --but when did that ever stop people making tables in this fashion.

Well I wasn't commenting on the basis of fashion or not, but merely putting forward a point the OP might want to consider. Hopelessly on topic in fact...

Cheers, Alf

I'm sure he never thought of that--he'll probably be glad you brought it up.

 

[spadge]

Table I made about 6 years ago

Have been able to monitor it regularly as I gave it to my mum.
Sycamore boards joined with plywood slip in slots (stopped so you can't see them at the ends) various widths from 10" and about 30mm thick. Joints still absolutely tight as a drum with no splits or differential movement.
Nowadays you expect things to go into dry, centrally heated houses. If they go in dry they will stay dry and movement will be less than in the bad old days. Still will need button fixings however, to relieve stress from whatever source.
On the other hand - a very similar table which I know of (he copied mine) has cleated (breadboard?) ends which only occasionally line up exactly with the edges of the board. Would have been better without them. Cleated ends perhaps more necessary in a more taxing environment with bigger variations in temp and humidity, or heavy duty use of the table.
cheers
Jacob

Cricky seemed to have ruffled a few feathers but your second paragraph about breadboard ends only occasionally lining up is exactly the point I was trying to make. (But I am a bit confused because it does seem to contradict your earlier post when you said it wouldn't move if the wood was well seasoned?)

I wanted to point this out so Gareth wasn't disappointed if he used breadboard ends expecting the ends always to be flush with the top. He like me is a hobbyist and its little faults like that that always jump out at you, even if others don't notice and even if it is "only" a kitchen table.

Guess you professionals have the luxury of selling on these sort of minor faults on, whilst we amatuers have to live with them:lol:

I'll get me coat!

 

[wrightclan]

Perhaps there is a language difference that is clouding the issue here...

My thoughts exactly.

Brad

 

[Anonymous]

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