Comments please on Kitchen Table

[cutting42]

Hi Chaps

I have to build a kitchen table that is long and thin to fit our new house's kitchen. The width is limited so I thought of storing benches under the table and using an identical design for the table and benches.

Material will be Oak and constructed from planks jointed to make the top and bench tops with a breadboard on the table. Should I breadboard the benches as well? I have tapered the legs but kept them chunky as I don't want to brace the legs due to space issues.

Comments please as I am pretty new to this and would like to know any howlers before I wreck any expensive wood! Aesthetic comments are welcome as well as I am not 100% certain that it just looks a little plain :?

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[Philly]

I like it, Gareth!
Maybe make the aprons a little deeper - difficult to tell from the angle of the picture. And I wouldn't worry about breadbaord ends on the benches unless you are in the mood :wink:
Cheers
Philly

 

[Anonymous]

I don't think I would breadboard the benches - particularly as they are quite narrow.

I think the legs on the benches look a little thick (same thickness as the table legs?), and possibly you should scale them down in their thickness to reflect the smaller size of the bench when compared to the table?

I think it is going to look lovely in oak

If you are worried about it looking a little plain, how about putting some butterfly joints in the top to hold the planks? I saw a program on the woodwork channel where a guy did this - looked lovely

http://www.diynetwork.com/diy/ww_tables/article/0,2049,DIY_14446_3728128,00.html

 

[cutting42]

Hi Tony and Philly

Thanks for the feedback chaps, the legs on the benches are a bit smaller - maybe not enough though. I will reduce the dimensions a touch when I get home as I think you are right they are too thick. I will also deepen the aprons as they are 75mm at the mo, I will take them to 100mm and take a look.

Ooo... the butterflys look lovely, not sure I feel brave enough for that yet but will maybe try on some scrap and see how they go.

Thanks again.

 

[Shivers]

looks sound,just reduce heaviness of legs slightly,& extend top length so cleat(breadboard) width equals 60-65% of total overhang.
ie--if cleat is 100mm-make total overhang 160mm or there abouts.



formula example, 100 divided by26 x 16 =61.53
61.53 +100 = 161.53.Total overhang.

 

[woodbloke]

Design looks good apart from one thing - do not put breadboard ends on the table top. The shrinkage of the top planks will be much greater than the breadboard ends...and as Mr C has commented on another thread, they will only be level with each other twice a year, or times when expansion of the top is greatest ie humid weather in the summer. Also, if the ends are well glued onto the top it will severely restrict movement and the timber will split. I've done breadboard ends on a number of pieces and regret it now.

The pics show the top a blanket chest ...you can clearly see the step in the top at the corners....and also the rather large split in the centre ...but it all adds to the genteel character of the piece, that's my story and I'm sticking to it :lol: Spell checka's back! - Rob

 

[AndyPandy]

Maths isn't my strong point - but

formula example, 100 divided by26 x 16 =61.53
61.53 +100 = 161.53.Total overhang.

What is that?!

Surely if you want something to be say 62.5% (or whatever) of anything, you just divide the width of the piece by 62.5 and multiply by 100?

 

[AndyPandy]

Mind you I certainly agree with the Cleat comments! An accident waiting to happen, although depending on the use of the table, there are ways to fasten them securely to avoid the result of the movements, but you'll still get and see the movement whatever you do

 

[Shivers]

Design looks good apart from one thing - do not put breadboard ends on the table top. The shrinkage of the top planks will be much greater than the breadboard ends...and as Mr C has commented on another thread, they will only be level with each other twice a year, or times when expansion of the top is greatest ie humid weather in the summer. Also, if the ends are well glued onto the top it will severely restrict movement and the timber will split. I've done breadboard ends on a number of pieces and regret it now.

Cleats as they are called can be fixed on via short tenons on the table top & oversize mortices in the cleats then pegged from underneath through the cleat into the tenon(but not all the way through the top surface.

http://www.bizrate.co.uk/diningroomfurn ... 45473.html

regards.

 

[dedee]

Each to his own of course but I have no problem with seeing the end grain on a table top.

My own oak dining table has not suffered from the lack of a breadboard end. 13 years in centrally heated houses and no signs of movement yet.

Andy

 

[Adam]

Its taken me a few goes to see what i think looks odd. Its two things, A) I think its too thin. Imagine people sitting either side, then try adding a few wine glasses, baskets of bread, dishes bowls of food etc in between them, and I think they are sitting too close (face to face if you like). Secondly, I think it needs more overhang, the breadboard ends look odd because they sit over the top of the legs, I'd have the main planks extend further, particularly in the lengthways dimensions, but in the width a little as well.

Putting a gentle curve into the horizontal bearers would maybe add a bit of interest?

What I do like is its simplicity. So I think it will look great once made.

Adam

Doh, read the original post. Its for a long thing kitchen....

 

[SketchUp Guru]

There's no reason to get splits in a table top with bread board ends if the assmbly is done properly. I think for this table though I'd leave them off so they match the benches. For a small space I think this looks good.

You might also consider trestle legs for the table and benches.

 

[woodbloke]

Even if the assembly was done with oversize mortices pegged from the underside, as Shivers correctly suggests (and clearly my assembly was wrong), there is still no way to counteract the 'stepped' effect of differential shrinkage rates which can be seen in my photos...its very irritating to see the timber shrink and know that if a different approach to the construction had been adopted the completed job would have been much better.

I also wonder with the pegged approach from the underside, if the joint line between the end grain and cleat would eventually widen over time due to shrinkage of the cleat itself...again that would irritate me. FWIW I think that the idea of and end cleat to hide end grain is an attractive one, but doesn't really work in practice - Rob

 

[Shivers]

I also wonder with the pegged approach from the underside, if the joint line between the end grain and cleat would eventually widen over time due to shrinkage of the cleat itself...again that would irritate me. FWIW I think that the idea of and end cleat to hide end grain is an attractive one, but doesn't really work in practice - Rob

it wouldn't shrink& cause a gap as you are supposed to put the pegs within 15mm or less near the edge ---so the cleat would shrink towards the table top,the only way that would have a gap is if the tenons bottomed out,

Also it got me thinking as to why cleats were needed in the first place ----then i remembered --to keep the top level & prevent warpage at the end.

regards

 

[SketchUp Guru]

Rob, you are correct. There is no way to prevent the stepped effect with breadboard ends but it can be either minimized by using quartersawn lumber for the planking or it can be used as a design element.

 

[DomValente]

Think I might brace the bench legs they get a lot of abuse

Dom

 

[woodbloke]

DaveR-... see what you mean....those are attractive pieces - Rob

 

[spadge]

Even if the assembly was done with oversize mortices pegged from the underside, as Shivers correctly suggests (and clearly my assembly was wrong), there is still no way to counteract the 'stepped' effect of differential shrinkage rates which can be seen in my photos...its very irritating to see the timber shrink and know that if a different approach to the construction had been adopted the completed job would have been much better.

I also wonder with the pegged approach from the underside, if the joint line between the end grain and cleat would eventually widen over time due to shrinkage of the cleat itself...again that would irritate me. FWIW I think that the idea of and end cleat to hide end grain is an attractive one, but doesn't really work in practice - Rob

You can't stop the movement but you can hide it if you make the breadboard ends slightly overlength and make a visible shaped dummy "tenon" that you glue into the table top but allow to float in the breadboard end. These are most usually seen in "Green and Green" tables like this:-

 

[cutting42]

Wow! :shock: :shock: :shock: I logged in and what a fantastic response to my question. Some really useful advice here especially on how to minimise the movement. I was planing an oversize mortice to allow for movement. I might even do through pegs for the detail. I do like the look of the breadboard/cleat so will probably keep it.

I have modified the overall sizes and overhangs etc. along with the comments and I have to say I am really pleased it does look a lot nicer so thanks:

Once again many thanks for the advice.

Actually I just though of something - is quarter sawn oak a lot more expensive? Any clue as to the expected cost and where to get it?

 

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