Combination Squares

[johnnyb]

For accuracy i find combination square stocks are to short as a datum and there slide mechanism tends to wear. But there general versatility is there saving grace.
The empire heavy duty professional square was to 0.001per inch.i think. And £14 or so.

 

[g7g7g7g7]

I really don't have deep enough pockets for this topic at all, I don't even own a cheap combi square.

This is everything I've gathered that could be considered a measuring or marking tool of some kind, I try to rely on a full size drawing to transfer sizes from or a story stick as much as humanly possible and I think it's liberating, as a hand tool worker whose main objective is finishing stuff I won't fuss over a third of a mm it isn't worth my time. There's an old phrase from back when I played a lot of music that was used by snobbish types to be disparaging "good enough for jazz", as someone who loved jazz I decided to take ownership of the term and use it positively. It's not like a giving up "It's close enough" thing it's more of a "that's gonna work nicely" type thing, working with poplar and softwoods due to budget means an overly tight joint will crush together pretty nicely and be tight as all hell so I can enjoy taking those liberties and not stressing the small stuff if it means getting a job done in half the time.

Will I spend £50+ on a combi square at some point, probably, but I'm eyeing up a £20 japanese saddle square type thing that looks like it'll fit into my work style better, no fiddling and adjusting rules involved in it

 

[custard]

rely on a full size drawing to transfer sizes from or a story stick

Nothing wrong with that. Indeed, I'm surprised how many people on this forum dive into projects with neither a plan nor a cutting list...but then again, lots of people never actually complete their projects, so maybe it's not that surprising after all!

 

[custard]

The empire heavy duty professional square was to 0.001per inch.i think. And £14 or so.

I wasn't familiar with that brand so I googled them, here's what some users had to say about Empire Professional squares,

the 45 deg is not accurate at all and not adjustable either, so I will be measuring my 45 degree angles with something else...

If you get one of these thats square out of the box, consider yourself lucky. This is NOT a the same quality as Starret or Mitutoyo.

The casual DIY user or beginning woodworker beware

The first item I got wasn't square

The second one was square out of the box, however it still had a 45.5 degree angle on the other part

Doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement!

 

[Sideways]

Empire used to make a line of carpenters squares in a nice anodized blue,as well as spirit levels, etc. I fancied one of these as it looked like it would be easy to read but my local independent told me they've gone out of business. The word is that they had a high level of returns.

 

[large red]

I have a M&W that my Dad bought me on the day I started my apprenticeship 35 years ago it's still perfect. It's one of those tools that I'm too attached to, and last year I made a box for it and retired to the shelf and only use it for very special jobs. Which I know is completely irrational.

 

[AJB Temple]

Woodworkers tend to assume that near enough is good enough, compared with engineers. In some cases though, for example when making musical instruments, with very expensive woods that are inherently stable, a high degree of precision elevates work from average to superb.

For this reason I became somewhat obsessive about measuring and setting out tools. The price differential is not much, especially if you are a Festool (et al) aficionado.

Buy once: buy good tools. Don't waste your time and energy with compromises.

 

[AES]

QUOTE, from large red: " Which I know is completely irrational. " UNQUOTE:

No it's not, or at least not IMO. The Starrett combi that I got cheap (cardboard box) will also get a nice wooden box, "one of these fine wet days"!

And as far as measuring & marking out tools are concerned, +1 for AJB Temple's post (again, IMO).

 

[ED65]

...and, crucially, really clear and deep engraving.

Just to emphasise how important this is in the long term, I found a combo square at the car boot on Sunday that wasn't in bad nick at all, few dings and just some grime and light rusting to deal with. Problem was the markings were so lightly done that after cleaning you'd have ended up with a lovely shiny steel bar with no measurements on it at all.

So I'd add to the list of desirable features a stainless steel rule. I actually don't know why every rule isn't stainless these days.

Buy once: buy good tools. Don't waste your time and energy with compromises.

But this so often gets equated with buy expensive, the implication being that is the only way to ensure quality.

 

[Sawdust=manglitter]

But this so often gets equated with buy expensive, the implication being that is the only way to ensure quality.

You might get lucky with second hand, but more often than not (or atleast I find) you get what you pay for.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

... So I'd add to the list of desirable features a stainless steel rule. I actually don't know why every rule isn't stainless these days ...

I don't know why manufactures seem to scour the world for the most rust prone steels to make tools (especially squares) from just to save a few pence at the manufacturing stage. :?

 

[E-wan]

I just picked up this Starrett combination Square for under a tenner on eBay

Checked and it still seems almost perfectly Square. However there are a few bits of residue on the top of the blade. Any suggestions on how to clean this and the rest of the square without impacting performance would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Ewan

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

 

[Racers]

Scotchbrite pad and block to keep it flat, some lube like light oil or paste wax will help.

Pete

 

[ED65]

...more often than not (or atleast I find) you get what you pay for.

I don't think that's true. It is more than likely true for this type of thing specifically, but broadly covering all tools there are so many bargains that are PDG that it just cuts the legs out from under the old adage. But to be fair everyone has their own way of defining value for money and when you're paying for perfect, or beauty, or straight-from-the-box performance then you are getting something concrete for your dosh.

Any suggestions on how to clean this and the rest of the square without impacting performance would be greatly appreciated.

For the rule one of the gentler rust removers (not an acid) would be good if you want to be very cautious. But a brief soak in any of the weaker acids won't etch the steel that you'd notice and will weaken the grip of the rust significantly (I find even a couple of hours in tired vinegar that I've used many times previously makes a difference), and after scrubbing with an old toothbrush I'd use steel wool. If you want to scour and give rust protection in one go after drying off use steel wool lubricated with WD-40 or baby oil. Steel wool has a different action to non-woven nylon abrasives and I think it's much better if you want to be very careful of the surface.

Electrolysis could work well, but you don't know if it'll float off the ink/paint in the markings. That can be restored but obviously you'd prefer not to have to!

Not sure about the stock though, I don't know if immersion in liquids has a negative effect on the bubble. So maybe careful sanding of the reference surfaces (paper flat on a hard surface) followed by a thorough oiling might be the best course of action.

 

[AES]

Personally I'd leave it to soak at least overnight (dis-assembled) and completely submerged in either paraffin (kerosene) or WD 40. Definitely NOT any de-ruster (nor hydraulic/brake fluid), simply because I'd be dead scared of removing the "paint" from the etched/engraved markings on the rule.

After overnight (or longer) leave to drain on old newspapers, then a GENTLE rub up with a worn green plastic kitchen pot scourer. Then let's see what it looks like before "we" go any further - IMO this really is a case of "gently, gently catchee monkey"!

And a good look at the lock nut, spring, and washer while you're at it would be a good idea too - not too much needed there probably apart from a good soak/clean (overnight) then light re-lube with 3 in 1 or similar.

HTH

 

[memzey]

I just picked up this Starrett combination Square for under a tenner on eBay

Checked and it still seems almost perfectly Square. However there are a few bits of residue on the top of the blade. Any suggestions on how to clean this and the rest of the square without impacting performance would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Ewan

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

Almost useful then?

I understand that there is a way of recalibrating certain combination squares where the lugs in the head stock are ground with needle files or similar but I have not done so myself. If it were me I’d establish a strategy for correcting its squareness to within acceptable tolerances (basically so square that I can’t see or measure the deviation) before I thought about spending the time and money on addressing anything else more cosmetic.

My 12” Starrett combi is probably my used tool so I appreciate their usefulness and hope you experience the same. Fingers crossed you can get this tool sorted.

 

[MarkDennehy]

So thanks for the advice everyone...

I followed it

Sooooo solid. I mean, just, wow.

The thing is built like spongebob squarepant's house. You know, like a brick pineapple-house

It's now officially my squarest square

And yes, I will be crying for a while at the €150 it cost. A long while. But feck it, it's sooooo shiny...

 

[AES]

Yup, they're loverlee aren't they! Just as a matter of interest, where (country) was yours made?

 

[MikeG.]

Frankly, I am astonished that someone with a seemingly well equipped workshop doesn't already have this indispensable tool. I am not sure how I would manage without one.

Don't get sucked into the idea that only certain brands produce decent tools. I have a couple of no-name combination squares, one of which I bought in a shop, and the other I got from a workshop clearance. The only thing I am interested in with a square is whether or not it is square. They both are, and I checked them in seconds before I acquired them. It's that simple. If you can find a square that is 90 degrees and costs 99p, then buy that. The expensive ones are more expensive because they take the trouble to make more of them within shouting distance of 90 degrees than the cheap manufacturers do........but if you find an accurate cheap one then it is every bit as useful a tool as if you had paid hundreds of pounds for it.

I don't use combination squares for measuring (well, not using the scale, anyway). I use them for transferring measurements, and obtaining measurements, but without knowing what that means in terms of mm. It is therefore of no interest to me what the scales are like. The only thing apart from the squareness of the 90 degree angle that is critical is the squareness of the end of the rule, because of its use a depth and distance gauge and a scribing/ marking gauge. If you use them differently, then of course only choose from those with a suitable scale inscribed......but again, you don't need to go to the expensive brands. Whatever you buy, don't buy it without first checking whether or not it is square.

 

[transatlantic]

To be honest, that thing looks cheap for what I would expect from Starret. I would have expected a nicely engraved logo, ...not a sticker. The rule looks good, but the body looks like something from a cheap hardware store