Collector anonymous

[kwigly]

Users are a pox on old tools.
Users wear down, b ugger, break, and otherwise slowly destroy a finite resource, denying it to future generations.
And they whine when the old tools become rarer and more expensive.

Collectors nurture their old tools, investigate the origins of each tool and its place in tool development, and add to the knowledge base of tool trivia. When Collectors cease collecting (after losing interest, dying, becoming bankrupt from investing in gold coins, or on orders from the Wife), their tools remain in the same good condition as when first collected and go back into circulation for the next Minder.

Users could get their tools from current Manufacturers, or if they lust to use an old tool surely they could make, or purchase, a replica (provided a Collector has saved an original that can be referenced for replication).

[Disclosures; I enjoy the hunt for old tools, and sometimes I buy them just to have them (but they're often in need of attention as I refuse to pay inflated prices). Sometimes I can't resist the urge to use old tools. Sometimes I damage old tools while "restoring" them. I have some beautiful old tools, and some unusual ones (but no really valuable ones, as I refuse to pay inflated prices, ..so far) ]

 

[Tasky]

Users wear down, b ugger, break, and otherwise slowly destroy a finite resource, denying it to future generations.

What are future generations going to do with it, though? Why do we need to save it for them?

Collectors nurture their old tools, investigate the origins of each tool and its place in tool development, and add to the knowledge base of tool trivia.

Or just chuck it in a cardboard box to rust away with seventeen others just like that one...

Users could get their tools from current Manufacturers, or if they lust to use an old tool surely they could make, or purchase, a replica (provided a Collector has saved an original that can be referenced for replication).

If there's a current version that works just as well, then happily!!!!!
The general suggestion is that very few modern vesions are as good, though, especially if they're even more expensive than the old ones.

 

[Sam_Jack]

Objection M’lud.

Without proof or even supporting evidence, my learned colleague accuses those who actually ‘use’ old tools of being a counterproductive, destructive force. I say, this is is not only risible, but inaccurate.

How many, reading this forum own old tools? A great plenty I’d say. How many of those abuse and ‘damage’ those tools – with malice aforethought. Not too many, (barring accident) I’d bet.

I have in my modest collection an old, wooden ‘coffin’ smoother – Scots by the maker. Now, at some time in it’s past, this plane has been dropped, severely damaged, partially repaired and subsequently discarded. It is old and it was a bloody mess then it came to my workshop. No longer a ‘mess’. Patiently and carefully repaired, then restored, then fettled, tuned and returned to service; that massive, heavy blade and it’s wooden carriage, trued up four, long Oak boards today, part of an architect designed, staircase without effort, singing all the while. Happy in it’s work.

Was it used? Of course it was. Was it abused? No. Is it in working condition? Of course it is. Did my nine year old grandson ask me if he could have it? Yes, he did. Will that plane serve him for the next two or three decades? Probably, provided he takes good care of it.

It is not those of us who repair, maintain, use and respect a tool – for what it is that lay waste to the ‘collectors’ obsessions (and profits) which cause the alleged damage. I’d say, it is those of us who actually preserve and use the inherent integrity and operational viability of ‘old’ tools, rust free and fit for purpose that will pass on the knowledge of how to ‘care for tools; and, such humble skills as we posses to a new generation of how best to use ‘em. So, I call a pox on those who would lock away a rusting ‘icon’ for selfish reasons, without restoring the thing to an operational status and passing the skill and knowledge to do so on to the next interested generation.

My old tools queue up to go to work; and at the end of day the ask no more than a quick dust off and a sip of oil, ready to go again, asking no more than a quick ‘touch up’ on the oil stone.

There is little demand for these tools, certainly not enough to inspire mass production. There used to be; but few would bother to make a rebate plane when the circular saw can be easily set, why use a one hundred year old wooden smoothing plane when there is a whiz bang electronic version? The answers are found in ridiculously simple questions. Why chop a perfect Mortise and cut a Tenon to make a joint by hand, when there is a router available? Why make 12 dovetails and their pins by mallet and chisel? Why drill a perfect hole with a brace and auger when there’s a drill press in the corner?

You know why – all of you here do.

Aye; enough and my glass is empty.

 

[Rhyolith]

The skills to use these tools are as much a part of them as the physical objects, so if you just focus on preserving the objects themselves then your still losing them. This is the problem I have with a lot of museums, they have the stuff but not the history. I think this why I liked the Llanberris Slate Musuem so much, it was real because they still split and work slate there.

Personally I do want there to be some old tools still in their original boxes and in “off the self” condition to go and look at, just like I want there to be some in active use by people who can show me how to use them as the makers intended. I don’t like the idea of all old tools being stored in glass cabinets and never touched or all being worn down in use so there are not examples left in original condition (just thinking of how many of my tools would not have made it to me in a functional state if they had been worked their whole life, most probably lived in a loft or shed for 20+years!).

The only problem really are people not respecting these objects, whether their labelled as “collectors” or “users” really does not matter. I am looking at you unpcyclers

 

[TFrench]

How about the lunatic dealers? I saw this plane come up on one of my usual local ebay searches and knew it would probably go for silly money so I watched it out of curiosity. Sure enough, its bid up to £2,050. Only that didn't meet reserve and he's now relisted it for TEN GRAND! If its bid up to 2K thats surely the market value for it! Idiot...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Norris-M...%3A2f938c4d1610a861ef490838ffd61acf%7Ciid%3A1

 

[Tasky]

Sure enough, its bid up to £2,050. Only that didn't meet reserve and he's now relisted it for TEN GRAND! If its bid up to 2K thats surely the market value for it! Idiot...

Yeah, what do you know? You're just a dumb woodworker...
This seller, while not a collector themselves, has "had guidance from several antique tool dealers to make sure it is priced correctly and can make its true value".... :roll:

Dealers say, collectors will pay.

 

[D_W]

How about the lunatic dealers? I saw this plane come up on one of my usual local ebay searches and knew it would probably go for silly money so I watched it out of curiosity. Sure enough, its bid up to £2,050. Only that didn't meet reserve and he's now relisted it for TEN GRAND! If its bid up to 2K thats surely the market value for it! Idiot...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Norris-M...%3A2f938c4d1610a861ef490838ffd61acf%7Ciid%3A1

If it's truly that rare, an ebay auction is the wrong place to sell it. A fixed price listing may not be. I have made the mistake of selling some older limited market items as straight up auctions on ebay. Once in a while, they bring more than you expect, but usually, they just don't have enough exposure in one week to reach the whole market.

I follow Kingshott's advice, let the collectors have the stuff that's expensive. I could *make* that plane for about $250 of materials (though it might have to be ebony instead of brazlian) and 75-100 hours of time, perhaps a bit less with some power tool assist on wasting the dovetails.

That said, if there is an established price for collectors of 10k pounds for a rare plane, even with pitting, then by all means, let them have it and don't worry about it.

 

[AndyT]

At least he's not weighed the plane in for scrap

 

[D_W]

Sure enough, its bid up to £2,050. Only that didn't meet reserve and he's now relisted it for TEN GRAND! If its bid up to 2K thats surely the market value for it! Idiot...

Yeah, what do you know? You're just a dumb woodworker...
This seller, while not a collector themselves, has "had guidance from several antique tool dealers to make sure it is priced correctly and can make its true value".... :roll:

Dealers say, collectors will pay.

I saw a bunch of "dumb woodworkers" ridiculing a Norton Axe Man barber hone a couple of years ago because someone listed it starting at $600. They had endless fun talking about how stupid the seller of a 5x2 1/2 inch sharpening stone was, and then when it started to get bids, they had endless ridicule for the "dumb idiots who must've been suckers for bidding on it" and "look how stupid people are".

The dumb woodworkers had no idea that they are rare and the market value of them in Australia for competitive axe men is in the four figure range.

The forum community has a bad habit of wanting to tell other people what things should be worth and what they should do with them - kind of like a bunch of old hens. It's not exclusive to woodworkers, but it sure seems to come up a lot. And I'm not one of those well-heeled collectors. I don't love it when I see a dealer go to a sale and buy an entire estate collection and then take it overseas and triple the price, but there must be a market for it. As long as there is, postulating what other people should do is sort of a waste of time.

 

[AndyT]

I don't love it when I see a dealer go to a sale and buy an entire estate collection and then take it overseas and triple the price, but there must be a market for it.

Just a doggone minute! You are overseas! Anyone who's watched Patrick Leach at the end of a Stanley's sale with another container's worth of old tools to take back to the States and sell for many times what we Brits will pay will have no sympathy at all! :lol:

 

[Tasky]

The dumb woodworkers had no idea that they are rare and the market value of them in Australia for competitive axe men is in the four figure range.

This dumb woodworker just spent 5 minutes on Google... and apparently they are somewhat rarer than Frictionite products (by a factor of about 8) but really no more than other brands, some of which are considered to be better anyway.
It's like buying Stanley tools and ignoring Record, Marples, Ward, Sorby, etc.

Those who buy Nortons and think they're nothing special, either for woodworking or shaving, get them off carpenters or at flea markets for a few (as in under $10) dollars and value pristine vintage ones at about $75. Seems to be just competitive lumberjacks who pay insane money for them.

The forum community has a bad habit of wanting to tell other people what things should be worth and what they should do with them - kind of like a bunch of old hens. It's not exclusive to woodworkers, but it sure seems to come up a lot.

There are also a metric feckton of sellers on eBay and the like who artificially increase prices just by putting "Rare, Antique, Vintage" and similar BS in their listings, before selling to complete idiots.... so much that you can buy "genuine SAS-issue" underwear for a fortune, while still being able to pick up the same black boxers for a quid at TK Max.

And I'm not one of those well-heeled collectors. I don't love it when I see a dealer go to a sale and buy an entire estate collection and then take it overseas and triple the price, but there must be a market for it. As long as there is, postulating what other people should do is sort of a waste of time.

I suspect there's only a market for it because people don't realise how cheap others get theirs for... and I suspect a lot of the dealers create/exploit that 'market' for all their worth, just like how £6 Apple electronic device markets are monopolised by the retailers who sell them for £900 here.

Just because some idiot is willing to spend stupid money on something, doesn't mean we should all follow their example.
That's how stuff gets expensive in the first place.

 

[D_W]

Agree on not following, thus back to Kingshott's advice. Leave that stuff to the collectors and move on to something they don't love. If they love something you want, make a copy of it instead.

No clue on the dealers buying planes, except ebay seized a 225 pound norris 2 that I bought this year with original wood (albeit a short iron, but the iron was original and just well used). I checked over here and found a dealer with a less nice plane for $800. Ebay told me that they did me a favor by giving me a refund when it would've gotten seized by customs...maybe. Except that's never happened when I didn't ship something through them. At any rate, 225 pounds turns into $800 here, and if a dealer is well capitalized, they don't care if they're sitting on their stock for a while.

Just the way it goes.