CLS studwork for dining table frame, bad idea?

[JamesO]

Hi,
I'm new to woodworking, and this forum. I'm trying to make a dining table. The top will be tongue and groove engineered flooring (chevron pattern) the legs are 69 x 69 mm white wood, and I was going to make the 'rails'(?) out of CLS studwork 38x 63 mm with the 38 mm plane at the top. I'm going to try haunched mortise and tenon joints for the legs to rail joints. My question is, is the CLS studwork appropriate for the job? It's very cheap. The CLS won't really been seen so it's asthetic qualities are unimportant.

I will have a 20.5 mm thick pine frame (architrave upside down) around the table which will be screwed to the rails, and provide some extra strength. The CLS won't really been seen so it's asthetic qualities are unimportant. The length of the table is about 1.6 metres. I bought the CLS and legs from Wickes.

Many thanks
Jamie

p.s. I've already started chopping, but have not done the M&T joints yet, so not fully comitted with the CLS timber.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Welcome to the forum...

...I think the frame members are usually called aprons rather than rails in tables. Rails normally refer to raised panel door components. But to your question, there's no reason you shouldn't use CLS especially as you note it won't be seen. It's typically used in structural components like stud walls so as long as it's well dried it should be fine.

One of the benefits of white wood in general is of course it's inexpensive (relatively) which means you can treat it's use as a prototype while you get used to the joinery methods and if you do make mistakes, it's not the end of the world. Personally, I tend to use thinner stock on my aprons and have before now used 5 x 1 door lining and also 11/4" reclaimed antique floor boards but if your table is large then the added "beef" of thicker timber won't do any harm, it will just be heavier to manoeuvre. Another consideration is that Whitewood, being fast grown, is quite soft so will tend to ding and scratch more easily than say.....piranha pine (you can use window boards) but then the cost goes up. That spectrum obviously continues up through the hard woods like oak, Beech etc and can end up at the very high quality end like teak, Mahogonay and other more exotic species.

But for your first try with some of the techniques, any of the easily available, inexpensive soft woods make sense and can be stained or painted to get the finish you desire.

 

[JamesO]

Thank you Bob. I'll crack on with my CLS then. I thought the pine may dent a bit, but like you said, I didn't want to spend too much with my limited skills. The other benefit for me using ticker aprons is more surface for the floor boards to sit on.

 

[John15]

Hi Jamie,

Welcome to the forum. With whitewood being very soft, I have found it can be difficult to work when cutting joints etc. A better choice would be the slightly more expensive Northern Redwood. Good luck with your table.

John

 

[Phil Pascoe]

You will save yourself work by buying better timber. Simple as that, really.

 

[Mike Jordan]

Hi Jamie
As you say the cheaper material may not be seen in the finished piece, but cutting joints in poor timber takes much more skill and gives a generally poor level of satisfaction to the maker. I think that many people who set out to do woodwork as a hobby are put off by trying to use the rubbish sold in the sheds. You would be much happier using unsorted grade redwood from a proper timber merchant. It planes and works beautifully and you will enjoy the job rather than struggling with white wood with rock hard glass like knots and a woolly finish. White wood is reserved for rough carcassing for a good reason. Unsorted will cost a bit more but the experience will be worth it.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Jamie....these chaps make a good point about the quality of the Scandinavian Deal the sheds sell, it is after all pretty awful stuff. It's a balance between cost and quality which had occurred to me when I recommended it's use. I know it can work because I've used it myself many times. The points made about better quality redwoods are well made, my point about piranha pine was along the same lines. I would however humbly suggest that as a starting point, the whitewood will get you into trying the joints out and will allow you to get to the deliverable (the payoff) with minimal fuss. You will need to expect it to splinter and generally be a bit of a pain, but since it wont be seen, don't let that put you off. Next project you do, with renewed confidence of the actual joinery, and maybe with the joints visible, think about selecting better quality stock.

I have no desire to contradict the other folk here, it's just that my sense is you've already bought the wood, you're half way through the project, I've done it myself and therefore have confidence it will work....it just wont be brilliant but as long as you know that in advance, take what you can from the learning but don't let the splinters put you off

 

[novocaine]

my workbench is made from the stuff. sharp tools is a must, other than that the joints can be made solid, take your time and you shouldn't see to many issues.

 

[jlawford]

If you're well into the project the I'd say go for it. There are some woodworkers who actually never really make anything and you will learn a lot along the way.

Regarding wood choices, all the CLS I've seen has had lots of tear-out. Doesn't effect strength and it's usually hidden, but it doesn't look good. That being said, pine in general is prone to it so even redwood pine will need a lot of care to plane if it's got knots, hence the suggestion for unsorted grade.

From my experience of being a woodworker around a year now, I would find a friendly timber yard that stocks decent redwood pine in all the standard sizes, and maybe will even cut to size. That will do a lot of projects, and if they stock a variety of hardwoods you can start experimenting with different species on smaller projects without committing to a whole load of expense.

I've said a lot more than answering your question, but as someone in a similar situation not so long ago, I thought I'd share my learning experience so far!

 

[JamesO]

Thank you all for your comments and I've taken them on board. I'll continue with the CLS for now as I can't spare the time to go backwards (9 week old baby and toddler at home), and I've had fairly good success with one haunched M&T joint, plus good success with the other mortises so far.

Could you advise me further with something please? The table will need a beam running longitudinally down the centre to support the chevron top. I'll also put a couple of cross beams to support the centre beam. The longitudinal beam will be two of the CLS timbers adjacent to one another (and screwed to each other) with the smaller dimension (38mm) facing upwards. I was thinking of either just using screws to attach the inner frame to the outside, as the screws will be hidden by a pine fascia. Or I could do T-lap joints to join to the outer frame, with a cross lap for the intersection cross and longitudinal beams. Screws would be quicker for me. I was also concerned about loosing some of the strength of the outer frame timbers by cutting out wood for the joints.

What do you think?

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Hi Jamie, not really sure why you think you need a longitudinal support in the centre of the top? The whole idea behind the chunky apron is to provide all the strength the top needs as well as a meeting point for the legs. The traditional means of joining the top to the frame is simply to fix in various ways at multiple points from underneath. Some use L brackets, even more traditional is to route a channel round the inside of the apron and then manufacture little wooden biscuits that screw to the underside of the top but have a thinner end which slots into the routed channel. That's a bit overkill (bit too crafty) for your design and materials so I would suggest you use simple L brackets and ensure the screws are stubby and small with pilot holes.

You said you're using tongue and groove floor boards.....are they very thin? Is that why you're thinking you need supporting strength under the centre?

If your top material will have a weak spot in the centre then your longitudinal beam will certainly solve the problem (you could probably stand a small tank on your doubled up CLS). Given time pressures etc, gluing and screwing is a perfectly reasonable way to go. However, ideally, your proposed housed joints will have greater mechanical strength and prevent wracking so if you have time then the joinery is well worth practising. if time is just not available then go for the "builders" solution with screws. One compromise with the screws is you can always counterbore and plug the holes but you said they'll be sight unseen anyway so I guess that's just not needed.

 

[novocaine]

guessing because the top is herringboned so the centre needs support.

 

[thetyreman]

when you designed the table, you should have beefed up the leg size and possibly made the aprons thicker so it can have a thicker tenon, a well made table is very strong, I'm not sure it needs the extra support.

 

[JamesO]

Thanks again for the replies.
Yes, the longitudinal support is needed for the chevron/herringbone pattern. The floor pieces are 14mm thick. Perhaps the double CLS centre is a bit much. I certainly wasn't planning to put a tank on it. Perhaps a 1 x 4 inch plank in the horizontal plane would suffice, if supported by two cross beams. I suppose the tongue and groove of the top surface provides some spread of pressure.


My tenons to the legs are only 1/2 inch thick and 32mm long. I was planning to brace the aprons across the inside of the legs, but perhaps I should put a screw through that brace into the leg.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

...I think the frame members are usually called aprons rather than rails in tables. Rails normally refer to raised panel door components.

Not really true unless you are American where the term 'apron' is the norm - in the UK they're properly known as rails. Chair frames and table frames with additional 'rails' set lower down mean you have a rail and stretcher construction.

Rails in doors are generally known as bottom (or lower) rails; mid, middle or intermediate rails, and top rails. They're not specific to raised panel doors because rails simply connect stiles and sometimes muntins or mullions (all depending on the what fills the gaps) which may enclose a range of items including, as you mention, wooden raised panels, but also raised and fielded panels, flat panels and various forms of glazing, etc, e.g., metal panels, MFC. I'll not get into fancy barred glass doors and other esoteric stuff, ha, ha. Slainte.

 

[Honest John]

I have used loads of cls timber from the big discount sheds on many projects, and if that's what you've already got I would use it. It always seems cheap especially if it is on some sort of offer as it was a Wicks last time I bought some. I will make two comments though. All the CLS I have seen on the big sheds had a higher than I would like moisture content and tended to move quite a lot as it dried further in my workshop. I then found that visiting a proper timber yard and /or builders merchant gave me access to redwood pine that was much better quality and in general was both drier and often cheaper than the quick grown white pine from wicks or b and q. The tougher redwood pine I found was also much easier to set out and cut.

 

[JamesO]

Interestingly, two of the CLS aprons/rails have twisted, one is unusable. I haven't joined them yet thankfully. I have a couple more that look ok to replace them though. How long does it take, generally, for wood to acclimatise to its new environment? I've kept mine in the house for a few days now already.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

It all depends on it's moisture content versus the moisture content it will reach when in equilibrium with the new home. Indoor furniture in a centrally heated house will often stabilise at somewhere in the region of 8% MC so it entirely depends on how "wet" your CLS is at the point of purchase. I''m guessing its from the kiln dried pallet that's inside Wickes? That still doesn't mean it's going to be that dry though so you've two ways to go....get a cheap moisture meter and test it or just leave it in its new home for a few weeks to see how it behaves. Also, make sure you select dead straight boards off the rack when you buy them. I eye every single board I buy down it's length from any source and think nothing of dismantling the entire pile to get the ones I want both in terms of straightness and any other feature eg grain figure or lack of knots/quarter sawn style etc.

 

[JamesO]

Thanks Bob, you've been very helpful. I got some straight boards today. I suppose at about £3 a piece, it's not the end of the world if you have to buy a few extra.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

No probs James. That's the benefit of using cls, even though it's not the best quality, it's sufficiently inexpensive to allow mistakes/poor material not to sink the project while you're learning. Since the objective here is to learn and end up with a useful bit of furniture, I think you've done the right thing. The confidence you'll get from finishing this will doubtless spur you on to future projects where you might well consider other woods for different reasons. We will look forward to posting them here because you know what the forum motto is....

....no pictures.....it didn't happen

best of luck.