Climate change policy

[Hypnotic Chimera]

I try not to post YouTube videos but I thought this was a rather thought provoking film on "climate deniers" because it describes some of the narratives we have on this thread:

Simon Clark YouTube

 

[Jacob]

I try not to post YouTube videos but I thought this was a rather thought provoking film on "climate deniers" because it describes some of the narratives we have on this thread:

Simon Clark YouTube

https://www.blinkist.com/en/books/the-demon-haunted-world-en

Climate change deniers perhaps do have a role like court jesters; deriding ideas and forcing a closer look. Trouble is you can have too many of them and all you get is the sound of babbling buffoons listening to each other and repeating what they pick up!

 

[Agent_zed]

I try not to post YouTube videos but I thought this was a rather thought provoking film on "climate deniers" because it describes some of the narratives we have on this thread:

Simon Clark YouTube

I've stopped trying to convince climate deniers of climate problems, instead I point out pollution problems. I may not be able to prove that the scientists are right about CO2 levels etc but it is easy to prove that if you have 10 million cars each with 4 wheels that start off with 8mm of tread and after ~2years they have 1.6mm of tread, all of that man made material from 40million tyres has been worn off and become dust which washes into streams and blows in the wind into gardens and lungs, and then all of those 40million tyres need to be disposed off somewhere, they don't just vanish. It's easy to prove that fertilizer run off causes algal blooms. It's easy to see plastic wrappers in hedgerows. It's easy to question whether they want to return to lead pipes for water supplies and if they say no, ask how do they know the scientists are right with the risks of lead poisoning if they aren't trusted to be right with climate change.

Climate change is a result of our horrendous treatment of the earth, even if climate change does not exist and/or is not a problem it does not in any way diminish the fact we are trashing everything and polluting every part of the world.

 

[DrPhill]

 

[Spectric]

Maybe we will have a new era of woodworkers, forced to learn handskills and watch as all the expensive tools that made jobs easy gather dust as they wield there mallets and chissel away to make a mortice by oil lamp or candle, we will not know or get the story because our Pc's are equally dead and so no news on the UKW.

 

[Jacob]

Page from Sagan (1996) with a forecast of things to come! Trump/Musk - Beavis/Butthead?

 

[DrPhill]

Maybe we will have a new era of woodworkers, forced to learn handskills and watch as all the expensive tools that made jobs easy gather dust as they wield there mallets and chissel away to make a mortice by oil lamp or candle, we will not know or get the story because our Pc's are equally dead and so no news on the UKW.

Maybe energy will get expensive, and so align the immediate personal cost with the real cost to the environment. Perhaps the same for timber, metal fixings and so forth. Objects such as furniture might then be made to last, and treated as valuable possessions, not as lifestyle accessories to throw away when a new seasons colours come out. Performing some tasks by hand may save on manufacture costs, and people will be proud to own something hand-made again. Well made pieces of furniture (for example) might be passed down through the generations, binding each generation to the previous with their acquired history.

I think that that consequence will improve the quality of many lives, the makers, the owners, the gifters and receivers. A far more meaningful life than our current throw-away, low quality society.

 

[BC'er]

Hi BC'er
Hows things in BC?
A cold but sunny morning here, with a touch of snow forecast.
I'm making mince pies this morning - do Canadians have the same tradition?
Happy Christmas!

All the best for the Season Jacob!

Those who want to have here all the customs of our "old countries".

 

[BC'er]

Please do, for the words that preceded it were sheer fantasy.

Reality is beyond these pages and your ideas, in case there was any confusion there.

If you think you can correct some misapprehension on my part, feel free to do so.

If you can't or won't we can draw our own conclusions.

 

[Sachakins]

Objects such as furniture might then be made to last, and treated as valuable possessions, not as lifestyle accessories to throw away when a new seasons colours come out. Performing some tasks by hand may save on manufacture costs, and people will be proud to own

Brilliant idea.
But who will be able to afford its true cost?
Only the few, not the many.
And the few are not enough to sustain the tasks of individuality for all.......

 

[paulrbarnard]

Maybe we will have a new era of woodworkers, forced to learn handskills and watch as all the expensive tools that made jobs easy gather dust as they wield there mallets and chissel away to make a mortice by oil lamp or candle, we will not know or get the story because our Pc's are equally dead and so no news on the UKW.

I was with you up to the oil lamp and candles. I was running an off grid workshop for many years but I had solar and a battery for led lighting. That’s still in use today despite now having mains to the workshop.

 

[DrPhill]

Brilliant idea.
But who will be able to afford its true cost?
Only the few, not the many.
And the few are not enough to sustain the tasks of individuality for all....

Cost and value need to be realigned. At the moment quality hand built stuff has a high cost but we don't value it enough - preferring mountains of disposable tat. But if we valued the hand-built more then we would be prepared to pay the cost. How we change value perceptions is a whole other question. If we made the immediate (monetary) cost reflect the real (long-term, environmental) cost then things might change.....

 

[Terry - Somerset]

I've stopped trying to convince climate deniers of climate problems, instead I point out pollution problems. I may not be able to prove that the scientists are right about CO2 levels etc but it is easy to prove that if you have 10 million cars each with 4 wheels that start off with 8mm of tread and after ~2years they have 1.6mm of tread, all of that man made material from 40million tyres has been worn off and become dust which washes into streams and blows in the wind into gardens and lungs, and then all of those 40million tyres need to be disposed off somewhere, they don't just vanish. It's easy to prove that fertilizer run off causes algal blooms. It's easy to see plastic wrappers in hedgerows. It's easy to question whether they want to return to lead pipes for water supplies and if they say no, ask how do they know the scientists are right with the risks of lead poisoning if they aren't trusted to be right with climate change.

Climate change is a result of our horrendous treatment of the earth, even if climate change does not exist and/or is not a problem it does not in any way diminish the fact we are trashing everything and polluting every part of the world.

This is a convincing explanation of why behaviours need to change.

Climate models produced by world class scientists are the best that can currently be created. But for Mr and Mrs Average an increase of a couple of degrees, occasionally more severe weather, a few cm of sea level rise by the end of the century simply don't cut it.

I have long been of the opinion that climate scientists are right - but have failed miserably to "sell" the problem, assuming that the general public will respond to scientific analysis and integrity.

There are parallels with Brexit - the concerns of Remainers were (IMHO) spot on - but the Brexiteers far better sold the benefits (no matter how illusory).

If action or change is needed, there are no prizes for being right, only selling the concerns in a way that promotes effective action.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Cost and value need to be realigned. At the moment quality hand built stuff has a high cost but we don't value it enough - preferring mountains of disposable tat. But if we valued the hand-built more then we would be prepared to pay the cost. How we change value perceptions is a whole other question. If we made the immediate (monetary) cost reflect the real (long-term, environmental) cost then things might change.....

I agree with you, having been brought up in an age where furniture, clothes etc etc were expensive, buying quality, and looking after that purchased was an expected behaviour.

Then I went on business (1980s) to the Middle East. I was shocked that buildings having been completed only a decade earlier were being torn down and replaced.

After contemplation it was clear - needs were changing faster than buildings were decaying. The same was true in the UK - furniture was not being bought to last a lifetime, just until the need changed. Hence the growth of IKEA (MFI before them) flat pack kitchens etc.

This was possible as the price of furniture (from Ikea) was ever lower. Changing consumer expectations, prompted the search for ever cheaper ways of meeting consumer demand - cheaper materials, automated production processes etc.

Desirable though it may be, I cannot see how folk will be persuaded to pay (say) £3000 for a properly crafted table and chairs vs £300 for the Ikea equivalent.

 

[DrPhill]

Desirable though it may be, I cannot see how folk will be persuaded to pay (say) £3000 for a properly crafted table and chairs vs £300 for the Ikea equivalent.

I have no idea either - the whole of our society is engaged in a destructive race to the bottom. I fear it will end up in one of the many dystopias portrayed in science 'fiction'. In such a world, with DFS and such no longer in business, I like to imagine the only items left would be properly made items with real value. More likely the solid wood tables will have been used as firewood long before then.

 

[ey_tony]

Has any of you armchair GW experts actually investigated and looked into the effects of the 2001 Foot and Mouth culls of huge numbers of beast and sheep and the effect it had on atmospheric methane?
It makes interesting reading but I'm sure you'll have already read up on it by now!

 

[Jacob]

......

I have long been of the opinion that climate scientists are right - but have failed miserably to "sell" the problem,

Massive opposition and derision from all directions from the scientifically illiterate, plus vested interests such as the fossil fuel lobby who knew all about it years before and lied, plus right wing media defending the oligarchs against interventions.

assuming that the general public will respond to scientific analysis and integrity.

They won't.
That's been the whole problem. Even in this forum. See earlier posts. https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/climate-change-policy.150089/page-22#post-1784092

 

[Jacob]

I agree with you, having been brought up in an age where furniture, clothes etc etc were expensive, buying quality, and looking after that purchased was an expected behaviour.

Low wages increases demand for cheaper goods, which tend to be inherently inferior, but are produced/imported at lower cost by lower paid workers. It's a vicious circle or positive feedback loop and difficult to reverse.

.....

Desirable though it may be, I cannot see how folk will be persuaded to pay (say) £3000 for a properly crafted table and chairs vs £300 for the Ikea equivalent.

It won't be a matter of choosing to spend more, but industrialised, cheap, low-wage production, imported, will be interrupted by climate change and there will be no choice but to bring the work back home, so to speak.
Having said that, for many of us it never went away; not that we buy expensive hand made stuff but we inherited a lot of furniture and household stuff several generations old, free of charge!
In fact looking around this junk filled room with some quite nice furniture going back perhaps 150 years, there are only four bought items; two Ikea Poang chairs 2nd hand £25 each, two Ercol dining chairs, £10 each second hand. Not quite sure what that signifies!

 

[woodieallen]

Cost and value need to be realigned. At the moment quality hand built stuff has a high cost but we don't value it enough - preferring mountains of disposable tat. But if we valued the hand-built more then we would be prepared to pay the cost. How we change value perceptions is a whole other question. If we made the immediate (monetary) cost reflect the real (long-term, environmental) cost then things might change.....

Dream on. The genie escaped the bottle decades ago.

 

[Sachakins]

Low wages increases demand for cheaper goods, which tend to be inherently inferior, but are produced/imported at lower cost by lower paid workers.

It's not always the case that they are inferior, rather the opposite. But no understanding of the impact that production under regimes that force wages below living costs eventually destroys the market. Slowly but surely the race to the bottom of cost results, inevitably in self destruction, but only after the anhilation of the western culture first.....