Climate change policy

[RobinBHM]

Making use of your capacity for "genius" ideas:

I assume you have made an informed estimate of the voltage drop, impact of current carrying capacity, size of cables required, cost of installation and trenching (needed to avoid damage) all of which are related to distance.

Your starting point may be the interconnects between France and UK which are ~50 mile long and carry a total of 1-2GW - a small part (3-5%) of UK demand when needed.

Scale it up for trans Atlantic power cables - or possibly Aussie solar panels which can fill in the gaps when the UK is dark. Then let me know how much it will cost, and how to make it secure against threats from a rampant Putin etc.

Interconnects to America are being looked at already so maybe it’s not that crazy

How much did the gas pipe cost from Russia to Germany….that was a 1200mm dia pipe concrete clad, so quite expensive

https://www.energylivenews.com/2024/03/18/uk-eyes-us-electricity-with-transatlantic-power-cable/

 

[Sachakins]

I'm genuinely confused, why do you think suppliers would want to prevent this? Having householders store the surplus at off peak times? Seems eminently sensible to me.

One of the issues is that overnight there is no grid solar energy. During the off peak times generation is predominately from gas and wind.
Now, if more domestic battery systems are installed, then the ramp up demand will be met by increased gas electricity generation in the main. So we will be trading off increased non renewable usage, producing more harmful climate gases and consuming more fossil fuels.

What we really need is a way that the energy companies can use day time renewable and provide charging only reduced rates.
This battery storage energy could then be used at off peak times to meet the lower grid demand, sufficient to negate the need to use the gas generated electrcity.

The problem is finding a way to differentiate between domestic use, domestic battery charging and domestic EV charging.

it's only a theory I agree, but surely there is companies out there that could crack it.

Triple gain, more off peak renewable, less fossil fuel usage with less climate harming gasses..

.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Consumer prices of electricity are capped by OFGEN currently at ~25p kwh.

Energy companies have to buy electricity in the wholesale market - prices can vary from just about zero off-peak up to ~100p at peak periods. The wholesale price represents about 50% of the total as it excludes network and operating costs.

There is a profit to be made by investing in storage. However, doing so will tend to reduce the price differential between peak and off-peak prices - taken to a logical conclusion, as storage increases to absorb all excess production off-peak and peak prices will converge.

Timing depends on the speed of investment by energy companies and individuals, impacted by:

• appliances increasingly set to operate, and EVs charge, at times of low energy cost
• EVs increasingly able to feed energy back to the home/grid from their batteries.

For an energy company a major investment in storage seems fairly high risk with a high probability that the benefits will decline over time. It may become more attractive over the next few years as the costs of bulk storage decline.

Individuals may assess risks and benefits differently as they see only a total cost per unit, not the detail the energy companies use. Small scale storage costs are almost certainly much higher per kwh than bulk storage - an inefficient use of capital.

 

[Sachakins]

U.K. already has these inter connectors:

an AC connector to the Isle of Man, and DC connectors to Northern Ireland, the Shetland Islands, the Republic of Ireland, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Norway, and Denmark.

Yes good point.

Remember too that the Russia to Germany pipeline 2 was curtailed/shut off due to sanctions.

Also that another underwater gas line exploded, due to suspected nefarious countries/terrorism attack.

Also the destruction of underwater cables by "accidently" being cut, likely deliberate action.

Loss of international www connectivity when under water data cable got sliced

The risk to underwater global infrastructure is a major problem, not easily solved or protected.

This is one of the driving factors behind satellite communications for nations security, and the move from several large state communication satalites, to the mass array type like Starlink. Other countries, China include are already setting up there own mass array mini satellite systems, state owned and state controlled.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Interconnects to America are being looked at already so maybe it’s not that crazy

How much did the gas pipe cost from Russia to Germany….that was a 1200mm dia pipe concrete clad, so quite expensive

https://www.energylivenews.com/2024/03/18/uk-eyes-us-electricity-with-transatlantic-power-cable/

2022 - the Nord Stream gas pipelines exploded - believed to be the work of Putins team although difficult to prove conclusively.

These links are built, they are far from robust bits of infrastructure. Also very expensive Morocco

 

[Sachakins]

Consumer prices of electricity are capped by OFGEN currently at ~25p kwh.

Energy companies have to buy electricity in the wholesale market - prices can vary from just about zero off-peak up to ~100p at peak periods. The wholesale price represents about 50% of the total as it excludes network and operating costs.

There is a profit to be made by investing in storage. However, doing so will tend to reduce the price differential between peak and off-peak prices - taken to a logical conclusion, as storage increases to absorb all excess production off-peak and peak prices will converge.

Timing depends on the speed of investment by energy companies and individuals, impacted by:

• appliances increasingly set to operate, and EVs charge, at times of low energy cost
• EVs increasingly able to feed energy back to the home/grid from their batteries.

For an energy company a major investment in storage seems fairly high risk with a high probability that the benefits will decline over time. It may become more attractive over the next few years as the costs of bulk storage decline.

Individuals may assess risks and benefits differently as they see only a total cost per unit, not the detail the energy companies use. Small scale storage costs are almost certainly much higher per kwh than bulk storage - an inefficient use of capital.

Good points.
But the dreaded daily standing charge is a killer for low users.

The kicker for the home domestic energy production is you need to be connected to the grid to send your energy to them.
So you can end up with the scenario that if you can gerate enough surplus to charge a large battery system, so you can then sell back to grid, but not use anything from the grid, it will still cost you around £250+ for the standing charge for the privilege of the energy companies profiteering

 

[DrPhill]

Now, if more domestic battery systems are installed, then the ramp up demand will be met by increased gas electricity generation in the main. So we will be trading off increased non renewable usage, producing more harmful climate gases and consuming more fossil fuels.

I’m not sure that I follow your logic. Surely more battery capacity means more energy to displace fossil fuel derived energy?

What we really need is a way that the energy companies can use day time renewable and provide charging only reduced rates.
This battery storage energy could then be used at off peak times to meet the lower grid demand, sufficient to negate the need to use the gas generated electrcity.

We already have time variable tariffs with possible different rates between import to a home and export from it.

I am using these tariffs - encouraged by my energy company.

 

[John Brown]

One of the issues is that overnight there is no grid solar energy. During the off peak times generation is predominately from gas and wind.
Now, if more domestic battery systems are installed, then the ramp up demand will be met by increased gas electricity generation in the main. So we will be trading off increased non renewable usage, producing more harmful climate gases and consuming more fossil fuels.

What we really need is a way that the energy companies can use day time renewable and provide charging only reduced rates.
This battery storage energy could then be used at off peak times to meet the lower grid demand, sufficient to negate the need to use the gas generated electrcity.

The problem is finding a way to differentiate between domestic use, domestic battery charging and domestic EV charging.

it's only a theory I agree, but surely there is companies out there that could crack it.

Triple gain, more off peak renewable, less fossil fuel usage with less climate harming gasses..

.

As I understand it, surplus electricity at night is more likely to be wind and nuclear. The nuclear power stations tend to run flat -out all the time, as they can't be ramped up and down very quickly. Gas fired power stations can and are ramped up and down to take out the slack in the system.
I agree about the lack of solar power at night, though. I've noticed that with the panels on our house.

 

[Sachakins]

https://www.energydashboard.co.uk/live
Current last 24 hours., gas is the main off peak generator

 

[Sachakins]

I’m not sure that I follow your logic. Surely more battery capacity means more energy to displace fossil fuel derived energy?

We already have time variable tariffs with possible different rates between import to a home and export from it.

I am using these tariffs - encouraged by my energy company.

It's how we get the off peak energy to charge the batteries, it's mainly gas generated. See the chart I just posted.

 

[DrPhill]

View attachment 194451
https://www.energydashboard.co.uk/live
Current last 24 hours., gas is the main off peak generator

Looks like wind (green) is consistently generating more than gas (blue). Or am I reading it wrong?

Except during peak hours.

 

[BC'er]

So you're personally attacking an individual - and not discussing the topic at hand. Got it. I think. Although you've used a lot of words and implied that they are relevant to someone, without actually giving any evidence that your words fit that someone.

Oh, for what it's worth, I see much more of your diatribe in your behaviour, rather than anyone else's (whether that's Robin, whom you named, after quoting Chris's post, for instance, so I don't know to whom you were referring when crafting those generic words!)

I'll let others decide who my comments apply to. One can very easily see the little ideological cliques here. I'm reminded of that column in Private Eye decades ago where the more grotesque examples of the artistic "luvvies" fawning over each other were reproduced for the enjoyment of the reader.

As for staying on topic considering what I see elsewhere in this forum, that is about as farcical as this topic itself. I won't waste any time attempting to convince you or any of the other true believers. 99.9999% of such folk had not the slightest interest in or knowledge of the subjects about which they fret and fume until they were told to when suddenly like professional mourners, up went the howls. A Milgram experiment on a mass scale; after all the micro version accurately predicted how the macro version would turn out.

I don't know what chimera has you hypnotized, but there are a number to choose from these days.

Oh, I know: it feels so warm and fuzzy to think you are cheering along with your elders and betters. The sense of belonging is so comforting, and the self-righteous glow and sense of superiority so gratifying. Yes, enjoy yourselves by all means. Part of the game is to destroy the previous unifying ideas and myths and then offer new ones which fulfill the same needs while leading the lemmings in the direction intended.

One often observes on social media the same frumpy, bad-tempered, judgmental shrews who today try to enforce "correctness" just as their ancestors did in the past; all that has changed is what they consider "correct".

As for me, common sense and the history of science shows that it is the outsiders and those scorned by the majority of their peers who are the innovators and original thinkers and who discern the truths which the orthodox go-alongs either miss completely or more often, aren't even slightly interested in; their mentalities are geared simply towards their own advantage, acceptance and all the craven perpetuals of human nature mentioned above.

Some I suppose make the effort to fool themselves, but most are simply fooled.

And now I must return to reality. Au revoir!