Climate change policy

[Ozi]

Interesting, which site did your graphic come from? What geographical region does it represent? It might be easier if folk give attributions, times dates etc.
The results from different sites seem to vary wildly, for example compare your site (wind 4.5%) o:
https://grid.iamkate.com/, taken today. It includes the time and the claimed data set (which I cannot verify)
View attachment 194396

Agreed, the site was
https://www.mygridgb.co.uk/

That was an instantaneous (I think there is actually a 15 minute lag but can't find the figures just now) I was illustrating the infamous cold still night that used to be one of the go to reasons why we couldn't adopt renewable resources. As the data you post shows the contribution from these is now often very significant but until energy storage at scale is developed we are still dependent on gas as a supply which can be quickly turned on / off to balance demand. I don't know much about nuclear so not sure how responsive that can be but running what we have flat out seems to be the norm and I trust the people in charge know what they are doing.

I used to believe hydrogen would be one way forward for storing energy, I'm now not so sure but think it probably has a place for some applications.

My main intention was to show that despite the difficulties we are facing there has been a great deal of progress and more can be made.

 

[DrPhill]

But, you could charge at cheap rate and sell back during demand period 6pm to 9pm and make a profit.

But it won't be long till they plug that loop hole. So make hay while the sun shines so to speak

It is not a 'loop hole'. It is part of a deliberate strategy. The customer invests in the storage technology and is rewarded with a price differential that allows a little profit to be made absorbing electricity when there is a surplus and releasing it when there is a shortage:
https://octopus.energy/smart/intelligent-octopus-flux/

EDIT: and this https://givenergy.co.uk/introducing-givback-a-new-way-to-earn-cash-from-your-battery-this-winter/

 

[DrPhill]

Agreed, the site was
https://www.mygridgb.co.uk/

Thanks, nice site. And the figures roughly match the others - ~~50% wind at the moment. You chose an outlier as an example - but one that needs coping with when it happens.

 

[DrPhill]

As an aside - I think I now smell a rat in the way that some of the electricity companies have been spinning that line about renewables "costing too much" and "damaging the economy" and "affecting the least well off the most", when in fact I think it might be that their very existence and large profit margins are suddenly at risk?

Which companies? As a counter example Octopus have been pushing green energy since they were created. (Their customer service is excellent too).
Take a read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus_Energy

 

[Sachakins]

All noted - thanks.

A couple of discussion points, however.

It is perpetually daytime on this planet (go figure), so some kind of mutually beneficial global trade in energy supply ought to be able to be struck, wouldn't you think?

I agree about your point that the (dishonest)(profit-seeking) energy providers don't want to forego their profits by investing in battery tech (or probably very cheap and very easy and very easily available "balancing" technology??)....

But I don't agree about your apparent "every man for himself" viewpoint - which appears just selfish and self-defeating in my view...

Couldn't we combine those 2 points and conclude that future CHEAP energy is not in the interests of (profit seeking) enterprise and that if we were to adopt a mature and joined-up way of thinking, that a "mutual" investment into energy provision for the group/community/society/citizenship is within reach and achievable with the appropriate mindset.


As an aside - I think I now smell a rat in the way that some of the electricity companies have been spinning that line about renewables "costing too much" and "damaging the economy" and "affecting the least well off the most", when in fact I think it might be that their very existence and large profit margins are suddenly at risk?

I can see your logic, but even though it's perpetual daylight on some part of earth, we have already seen the global energy crisis when conflict arose and fuel sanctions and country self serving nature raised its head.

Until we have everlasting global peace and unity, then global stable energy will never be a starter.

I didn't mean it as a self centre, each man for himself. Rather the opposite, prevent the energy suppliers making profit of your investment, thereby forcing them to take action on their infrastructure.

I could envisage a customer cooperative pricing. So us setting our wholesale price for them to buy at, rather than us accepting their terms, which is minimum purchase price in general to maintain their profits.
Screw them, either pay us a rate that covers our investment costs that we set or get your own infrastructure. sorted out

 

[Sachakins]

It is not a 'loop hole'. It is part of a deliberate strategy. The customer invests in the storage technology and is rewarded with a price differential that allows a little profit to be made absorbing electricity when there is a surplus and releasing it when there is a shortage:
https://octopus.energy/smart/intelligent-octopus-flux/

EDIT: and this https://givenergy.co.uk/introducing-givback-a-new-way-to-earn-cash-from-your-battery-this-winter/

That price differential is not across the board though. Unless you tie to a supplier, then the permit rate can be as low as 3.5p.
The two shown above are the exception, even those don't offer a rate that is anywhere near what your generating costs per kwH unless you are tied yo them.
Also as I pointed out, as the number of domestic installations grows, the rate paid is decreasing.

If you look at California, who were ahead of the curve in uptake,the recent slash to prices showed a drop off of installations after the change by 80%, putting some installers out of business already.

 

[woodieallen]

.....

It is perpetually daytime on this planet (go figure), so some kind of mutually beneficial global trade in energy supply ought to be able to be struck, wouldn't you think?

.....

Oh how clever. Why didn't we all think of that ? Just a small question... how the hell are you going to connect all those countries up, Gunga Din? You spout some specious verbiage most of the time but this one takes the prize.

 

[mudman]

This is a good site if you want a view of how the UK's energy is being generated at any point in time: https://gridwatch.co.uk/demand

 

[Hypnotic Chimera]

Which companies? As a counter example Octopus have been pushing green energy since they were created. (Their customer service is excellent too).
Take a read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus_Energy

I've been with Octopus for several years now

 

[Hypnotic Chimera]

Which companies? As a counter example Octopus have been pushing green energy since they were created. (Their customer service is excellent too).
Take a read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus_Energy

The fossil fuel energy companies with ties to the fossil fuel electricity generating plants - the kind that have been profiteering since 2020 I think - saw the writing on the wall?

 

[Hypnotic Chimera]

Oh how clever. Why didn't we all think of that ? Just a small question... how the hell are you going to connect all those countries up, Gunga Din? You spout some specious verbiage most of the time but this one takes the prize.

Oh, I dunno - maybe with some wires?

How does the UK "import" it's electricity needs in times of deficit?
An earlier graphic - and I don't even need to scroll up to remember this nugget - because it was quite memorable - there was a "deficit" of iirc 1.5GW that needed to be satisfied from elsewhere?

I didn't think that this was such a heavy tariff mental task - you know, to work out how electricity is imported and exported between nations, but maybe I'm a genius, if you couldn't think of it for yourself?

"specious verbiage", Iol - I'm crying with mirth at that one. (At, not with.)

 

[Ozi]

Oh how clever. Why didn't we all think of that ? Just a small question... how the hell are you going to connect all those countries up, Gunga Din? You spout some specious verbiage most of the time but this one takes the prize.

Just putting some leaves on the verbiage

https://xlinks.co/morocco-uk-power-project/

"The Xlinks Morocco-UK Power Project will be a new electricity generation facility entirely powered by solar and wind energy combined with a battery storage facility. Located in Morocco’s renewable energy rich region of Guelmim Oued Noun, it will be connected exclusively to Great Britain via 4000km (2485 miles) HVDC sub-sea cables.
This first of a kind project will generate 11.5GW of zero carbon electricity from the sun and wind to deliver 3.6GW of reliable energy for an average of 19+ hours a day. This is enough to provide affordable, clean power to the equivalent of over 7 million British homes and once complete, the project will be capable of supplying 8 percent of Great Britain’s electricity needs.
Alongside the consistent output from its solar panels and wind turbines, an onsite 22.5GWh/5GW battery facility will provide sufficient storage to reliably deliver each and every day, a dedicated, near-constant source of flexible and predictable clean energy for Britain, designed to complement the renewable energy already generated across the UK.
When domestic renewable energy generation in the United Kingdom drops due to low winds and short periods of sun, the project will harvest the benefits of long hours of sun in Morocco alongside the consistency of its convection Trade Winds, to provide a firm but flexible source of zero-carbon electricity."

 

[Phil Pascoe]

But, you could charge at cheap rate and sell back during demand period 6pm to 9pm and make a profit.

But it won't be long till they plug that loop hole.

Loop hole? Octopus advise you you can do that.

 

[DrPhill]

Loop hole? Octopus advise you you can do that.

They even supply the control software to make it easier. They have a more favorable tariff for people doing this. They benefit by selling your electricity to the grid at a profit when the grid is short.

So it is all part of helping the grid to be more resilient, and reducing the need to spin up more fossil-based generation at peak periods. This is how the experts are dealing with the problems of climate change.

 

[Sachakins]

They even supply the control software to make it easier. They have a more favorable tariff for people doing this. They benefit by selling your electricity to the grid at a profit when the grid is short.

So it is all part of helping the grid to be more resilient, and reducing the need to spin up more fossil-based generation at peak periods. This is how the experts are dealing with the problems of climate change.

Yes, at present, but some suppliers already investigating ways to prevent this in the future.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Oh, I dunno - maybe with some wires?

How does the UK "import" it's electricity needs in times of deficit?
An earlier graphic - and I don't even need to scroll up to remember this nugget - because it was quite memorable - there was a "deficit" of iirc 1.5GW that needed to be satisfied from elsewhere?

I didn't think that this was such a heavy tariff mental task - you know, to work out how electricity is imported and exported between nations, but maybe I'm a genius, if you couldn't think of it for yourself?

"specious verbiage", Iol - I'm crying with mirth at that one. (At, not with.)

Making use of your capacity for "genius" ideas:

I assume you have made an informed estimate of the voltage drop, impact of current carrying capacity, size of cables required, cost of installation and trenching (needed to avoid damage) all of which are related to distance.

Your starting point may be the interconnects between France and UK which are ~50 mile long and carry a total of 1-2GW - a small part (3-5%) of UK demand when needed.

Scale it up for trans Atlantic power cables - or possibly Aussie solar panels which can fill in the gaps when the UK is dark. Then let me know how much it will cost, and how to make it secure against threats from a rampant Putin etc.

 

[DrPhill]

Yes, at present, but some suppliers already investigating ways to prevent this in the future.

Which suppliers? What evidence do you have? This is obviously something that I am interested in, so please share…,,.

 

[John Brown]

Yes, at present, but some suppliers already investigating ways to prevent this in the future.

I'm genuinely confused, why do you think suppliers would want to prevent this? Having householders store the surplus at off peak times? Seems eminently sensible to me.

 

[Sachakins]

I'm genuinely confused, why do you think suppliers would want to prevent this? Having householders store the surplus at off peak times? Seems eminently sensible to me.

It is sensible, but only at a profit to them not you, that's my point.

 

[RobinBHM]

Oh how clever. Why didn't we all think of that ? Just a small question... how the hell are you going to connect all those countries up, Gunga Din? You spout some specious verbiage most of the time but this one takes the prize.

U.K. already has these inter connectors:

an AC connector to the Isle of Man, and DC connectors to Northern Ireland, the Shetland Islands, the Republic of Ireland, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Norway, and Denmark.