Clifton, Veritas or Lie Neilsen ?

[big soft moose]

Surely there must be something in the Dakota line you can procure...

:-#

fortunately rutlands aren't a preferred vendor either, not that i would buy from them if they were the last vendor on earth.

 

[Alf]

Why do I always seem to swim against the tide?

Dunno, Brian - to save yourself from drowning? Quite honestly I also find the whole funding reasoning so utterly blood boiling I can't bring myself to even consider the question. Not BSM's fault, but... Gah!

 

[yetloh]

It's hard to argue against the Clifton because of the price advantage although my personal preference would be for Veritas. They have useful innovations and I would rather support companyiss who try to move the game on rather than those which simply copy old designs, however worthy.

Jim

 

[jlawrence]

I worked at somewhere in the past where we could only procure from preferred vendors - as network manager it did my head in.
One day they just turned around and said add 'your' preferred vendors to the list - ebay was one of the first to go on .
I think it would be worth while you going through the hassle of getting WH added to the list - if not for this purchase then it'd be useful for future.
It's good to have Axminster on there but they don't sell everything - which is my major bugbear with preferred vendors. The preferred vendor idea is good for general purchases, but specials can 'normally' still be bought from anywhere - after all if the preferred don't sell what you need then you can't buy it from there.

 

[big soft moose]

I think it would be worth while you going through the hassle of getting WH added to the list - if not for this purchase then it'd be useful for future.
.

i'm working on that - going to be speaking with matthew next week , ive also made an arrangement with him to enable me to get a QS no.6 for work so thats the resolution of this querry.

 

[Vann]

...to enable me to get a QS no.6 for work so thats the resolution of this querry.

There goes the British planemaking industry, down the gurgler.

I guess we'll never see the Clifton block plane in production now.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Max Power]

Yes another nail in the coffin of british industry, when chinese goods are chosen over british when even the price element wasnt an issue , what hope for british products What is particularly worrying is the number of people in agreement with this choice :roll: hopefully theyll be the ones who lose their jobs to the east at least itll give them plenty of time to play with their chiwanese toys :evil:

 

[daver828]

Unfortunately these arent for me but for work - with us shortly moving to a new 'shop i have decided that the time has come to upgrade our crappy chinese planes and as the budget will stand it at the momnt i am looking at buying a quality marque.

the basic purchase will be a no.6 or 7 as we are largely working big things like signs, gates, benches etc plus i might get a 4 for shooting the ends of tenons etc

question is which make ?

I know the reasons for picking these three collectively over stanley/quasheng/axminster etc but how do i choose between them ?

my instinct is to go with clifton on the basis of their being british made but i want to be sure their isnt a good reason i should choose veritas or LN instead

all input welcome

Why no Philly planes option?

 

[Loz_S]

I just want to agree wholeheartedly with Vann and Alan Jones comments.

Why on earth would anyone suggest Clifton planes are "too good" for workshop use. How damned pretentious and short sighted. Planes are made to be used not looked at.

To admit that Clifton planes are easily the better choice but don't want them sullied by untrained hands is ridiculous. I'm pretty sure Clifton would rather sell another plane than become a bankrupt elitist reserve for those worthy enough to be allowed to handle them.

It really is no surprise to me that British industry is going down the sh**er when a great British company like Clifton can't even win a contest like this.

 

[Modernist]

The Clifton is a superb cabinet makers plane and competes with a couple of others for this market.

Even Clifton cannot imagine this specialised tool is a mass market item and, with respect, making gates will not make use of many of the undoubted benefits of the Cliffy.

The only reason price was not an issue was the rather dubious argument that beauacracy, and the fact that it was ultimately public money, made this option possible.

To suggest that this sounds the death knell for Clifton planes is utter rubbish. To survive they will have to compete effectively in their own chosen market. To date I have not personally felt moved to include Clifton in my own collection, not because they are bad in any way, but that, on the day, some features of alternatives had greater personal appeal to me. Such is life.

 

[Loz_S]

..To suggest that this sounds the death knell for Clifton planes is utter rubbish. ..

Is it really?

If everyone who considers buying a Clifton is convinced they should buy something else (for whatever reason), who is left to actually buy from Clifton?

Cause and effect. Your advice has consequences whether you choose to agree or not.

 

[Modernist]

..To suggest that this sounds the death knell for Clifton planes is utter rubbish. ..

Is it really?

If everyone who considers buying a Clifton is convinced they should buy something else (for whatever reason), who is left to actually buy from Clifton?

Cause and effect. Your advice has consequences whether you choose to agree or not.

Clearly true and I am sure all purchasers have considered alternatives, but why would you suggest that "everyone...be convinced to buy something else". People in different circumstances clearly will decide to buy Clifton if it is attractive for them and their needs.

 

[Vann]

To suggest that this sounds the death knell for Clifton planes is utter rubbish.

Not utter rubbish. This may not be enough to kill off Clifton, but it will reduce sales, making their operation less viable.

Here in New Zealand we used to have world class tramping pack manufacturers (my other hobby...). They made the packs that Sir Edmund Hillary used to conquer Everest and on his Trans-Antarctic expeditions. Another business decided it could make packs cheaper by importing from China. Now there's no-one employed in pack manufacturing in NZ.

Beauacracy occurs everywhere. If it keeps your neighbour in a job it's not all bad.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Loz_S]

Clearly true and I am sure all purchasers have considered alternatives, but why would you suggest that "everyone...be convinced to buy something else". People in different circumstances clearly will decide to buy Clifton if it is attractive for them and their needs.

It would appear to me that Clifton very nearly had a sale "in the bag" until advice was given suggesting QS would be a better buy. Clifton certainly was attractive and met his need but you appeared to suggest that his need wasn't worthy of a quality Clifton plane.

I am very much of the opinion that "a tool is just a tool" and should be used and not admired (or heaven forbid just collected). Who cares if some of the volunteers don't "appreciate" the quality, Clifton tools are virtually indestructible and more than worthy for workshop use - why preclude them? Anyway, BSM said that the volunteers in his group weren't a bunch of muppets, but skilled woodworkers and ex-professionals.

Seeing a Ferrari in a museum instead of driven on the track really winds me up.

 

[big soft moose]

I just want to agree wholeheartedly with Vann and Alan Jones comments.

Why on earth would anyone suggest Clifton planes are "too good" for workshop use. How damned pretentious and short sighted. Planes are made to be used not looked at.

To admit that Clifton planes are easily the better choice but don't want them sullied by untrained hands is ridiculous. I'm pretty sure Clifton would rather sell another plane than become a bankrupt elitist reserve for those worthy enough to be allowed to handle them.

It really is no surprise to me that British industry is going down the sh**er when a great British company like Clifton can't even win a contest like this.

the bottom line tho is that this is public money and i am obliged to make the best possible use of it - given that quangsheng are very nearly as good (and for the work we will be doing indistinguishable) at a tad over a hundred notes rather than over twice as much this is a no brainer now that the issues of our ability to purchase from workshop heaven have been resolved.

It ought to be posible for a "great british company" like clifton to make a budget model, and this will be necessary if they are going to compete with imports of the standard of QS

 

[dunbarhamlin]

Also a strong believer that British public funds should be used to buy British goods from a British source unless there's a damn good reason not to.
Shame. Only got one part right here (and Matthew does stock Cliffies.)

 

[big soft moose]

Clearly true and I am sure all purchasers have considered alternatives, but why would you suggest that "everyone...be convinced to buy something else". People in different circumstances clearly will decide to buy Clifton if it is attractive for them and their needs.

It would appear to me that Clifton very nearly had a sale "in the bag" until advice was given suggesting QS would be a better buy. Clifton certainly was attractive and met his need but you appeared to suggest that his need wasn't worthy of a quality Clifton plane.

I am very much of the opinion that "a tool is just a tool" and should be used and not admired (or heaven forbid just collected). Who cares if some of the volunteers don't "appreciate" the quality, Clifton tools are virtually indestructible and more than worthy for workshop use - why preclude them? Anyway, BSM said that the volunteers in his group weren't a bunch of muppets, but skilled woodworkers and ex-professionals.

Seeing a Ferrari in a museum instead of driven on the track really winds me up.

I agree with you about tools being there to be used and my volunteers would use any tool with respect so the whole "too good to be used" thing is a red herring.

clifton nearly had this sale in the bag only because i was apparently unable to buy a QS for adminsistrative reasons (ie they had won the competition agains veritas and LN, and against the budget models offered by stanley and axminster) - as soon as matthew found a way passed the administrative barrier the choice was:

a) a QS 6 for £119 (or actually less than that due to the nature of the deal i did with mathew)

b) A clifton 6 for £232

Choosing A is a no brainer as it leaves our project with another £112 to spend on other tooling, and we dont have money to burn.

If clifton would like to offer me 50% off or if someone would like to donate a hundred and twelve notes on the proviso that we buy a clifton then i'll happily buy one,

 

[big soft moose]

Also a strong believer that British public funds should be used to buy British goods from a British source unless there's a damn good reason not to.
Shame. Only got one part right here (and Matthew does stock Cliffies.)

there is a damn good reason not to - the cliffie costs twice as much ! and in this economic climate we dont have a hundred plus notes to spend needlesly.

 

[Loz_S]

a) a QS 6 for £119 (or actually less than that due to the nature of the deal i did with mathew)

b) A clifton 6 for £232

Choosing A is a no brainer as it leaves our project with another £112 to spend on other tooling, and we dont have money to burn.

Well, price, in this case, really does clinch it then...

It ought to be posible for a "great british company" like clifton to make a budget model, and this will be necessary if they are going to compete with imports of the standard of QS

To continue my car analogy, I don't see Ferrari releasing "budget models" and probably for a very sound business reason!

.

 

[big soft moose]

To continue my car analogy, I don't see Ferrari releasing "budget models" and probably for a very sound business reason!

true but then ferrari probably arent worried about their market share being threatened by for example the mazda mx5 ( and yes i know thats made in japan not china)

If clifton are similiarly unworried then fine - but they (and you) cant be suprised when people buy cheaper brands for economic reasons.

(the real loser to the QS would therefore not be clifton but stanley who's no.6 priced at £85 is in direct competition - however its also crap)