Clifton, Veritas or Lie Neilsen ?

[big soft moose]

Why no Philly planes option?

because AFAIK philly doesnt make a no.6 jointer plane equivalent

AFAICS his longest plane is the "jack" which is roughly equivalent to a 4 or 5, If i'm wrong about this and philly does have a jointer in his repertoire which we would like to offer us for arround 120 notes then i'd invite him to get in touch

 

[Modernist]

Clearly true and I am sure all purchasers have considered alternatives, but why would you suggest that "everyone...be convinced to buy something else". People in different circumstances clearly will decide to buy Clifton if it is attractive for them and their needs.

It would appear to me that Clifton very nearly had a sale "in the bag" until advice was given suggesting QS would be a better buy. Clifton certainly was attractive and met his need but you appeared to suggest that his need wasn't worthy of a quality Clifton plane.

I am very much of the opinion that "a tool is just a tool" and should be used and not admired (or heaven forbid just collected). Who cares if some of the volunteers don't "appreciate" the quality, Clifton tools are virtually indestructible and more than worthy for workshop use - why preclude them? Anyway, BSM said that the volunteers in his group weren't a bunch of muppets, but skilled woodworkers and ex-professionals.

Seeing a Ferrari in a museum instead of driven on the track really winds me up.

So you think information on alternatives should be supressed from fellow forum users to support a particular supplier. Surely the purpose of fora such as this is to spread information and experience to allow contributors to make an informed choice.

With regards to the application in question I said it "would not make use of the undoubted benefits" which I stand by.

I think some of the comments on this thread were driven by the rather unusual purchasing arrangements and their consequences at a time when funding is unavailable for a never ending list of worthy causes.

I am not a professional woodworker but get a deal of pleasure from the use of well tuned planes, in particular, and, like others on this forum, have a range to choose from. Nothing wrong with that IMHO. Like you I don't have a lot of time for non-using collectors but they are entitled to their view. It's just a pity that the rest of us are saddled with the effect they have on prices.

Not utter rubbish. This may not be enough to kill off Clifton, but it will reduce sales, making their operation less viable.

Here in New Zealand we used to have world class tramping pack manufacturers (my other hobby...). They made the packs that Sir Edmund Hillary used to conquer Everest and on his Trans-Antarctic expeditions. Another business decided it could make packs cheaper by importing from China. Now there's no-one employed in pack manufacturing in NZ.

Beauacracy occurs everywhere. If it keeps your neighbour in a job it's not all bad.

Design is all - well almost. It's why LN, Clifton and Veritas are successful. Similarly I recently had the opportunity to take a close look at the Stanley "high end" offerings and was appalled by the poor design and particularly quality control. Using light alloy with a very poor thread for a block plane handle is sure to fail, and it does. Interestingly and unusually most of their competition comes from much more expensive Western products that did what their clients wanted - well.

It may surprise you to learn that my main occupation is the MD of an engineering company in the UK specialising in wear resistance and screening media for minerals processing, an industry traditionally dominated by Scandinavian companies and low cost commodity products from China et al. The answer is not to be protectionist of home grown industries as this weakens them, eg the UK car and motorcyle industry. How is it that Toyota and Honda can make cars successfully in the UK when our own manufactureres could not. Answer - better management and a focus on the customer. All manufacturing companies can do that but you have to choose your market carefully and build on your true strengths i.e. don't try to make T shirts in the UK but F1 racing cars - yes.

The future of Clifton lies in it's own hands and I wish them well.

 

[Loz_S]

...The answer is not to be protectionist of home grown industries as this weakens them, eg the UK car and motorcyle industry. How is it that Toyota and Honda can make cars successfully in the UK when our own manufactureres could not. Answer - better management and a focus on the customer. ...

I don't want to drag this out much more as we have all made our points quite well and BSM has made his decision.

However, dragging this OT for a minute, I believe that a case can quite clearly be made in favour of some protectionism. Especially with your examples of car producers. Renault and Peugeot-Citroen are really only successful today due to continual French government support which maintains an industrial base in France. If only the UK had done the same...

Also, AFAIK the Japanese manufacturers were originally forced to set up plants in Europe as EU quotas on Japanese cars built in Japan were introduced. The plants were only located in the UK because the UK government offered them massive tax breaks and set-up grants!

Now, someone remind me, what has this got to do with woodworking...!

 

[Modernist]

...The answer is not to be protectionist of home grown industries as this weakens them, eg the UK car and motorcyle industry. How is it that Toyota and Honda can make cars successfully in the UK when our own manufactureres could not. Answer - better management and a focus on the customer. ...

I don't want to drag this out much more as we have all made our points quite well and BSM has made his decision.

However, dragging this OT for a minute, I believe that a case can quite clearly be made in favour of some protectionism. Especially with your examples of car producers. Renault and Peugeot-Citroen are really only successful today due to continual French government support which maintains an industrial base in France. If only the UK had done the same...

Also, AFAIK the Japanese manufacturers were originally forced to set up plants in Europe as EU quotas on Japanese cars built in Japan were introduced. The plants were only located in the UK because the UK government offered them massive tax breaks and set-up grants!

Now, someone remind me, what has this got to do with woodworking...!

Only a tenuous link - we've said our piece so I agree, let's move on

 

[dunbarhamlin]

If the QS is 40% less than the Cliffie, the net cost of the Clifton to the British taxpayer is probably about the same or less - we need legislation to properly support our few remaining wealth producers, such that either government funded bodies are reimbursed the UK manufacturer's tax burden (probably the most cost effective solution) or the manufacturers are given exemption/rebates for corporation/employment taxes associated with publicly funded orders (much messier)

 

[yetloh]

Design is all - well almost. It's why LN, Clifton and Veritas are successful.

That's a bit of a stretch in the case of Clifton and LN because basically, they haven't designed a thing, just copied someone else's 50 -100 year old designs and made them to a higher standard. Nothing wrong with that you may argue, unless you are using a company's design credentials as a reason for advocating purchase. A perfectly respectable line in relation to Veritas and one of the reasons why I favour their products;they are the only makers of premium quality planes who have tried to move the game on in design terms.

In saying this I am not of course suggesting that this is an argument against BSF's decision to buy the QS which seems very sensible in his situation. Spending my own money gives me the luxury of being able use criteria other than functional adequacy and price.

Jim

 

[dunbarhamlin]

Do agree.
In the current setup, the Scottish pretender's slush fund would be better served by buying Cliffie, but BSM's budget is not.

 

[Modernist]

Design is all - well almost. It's why LN, Clifton and Veritas are successful.

That's a bit of a stretch in the case of Clifton and LN because basically, they haven't designed a thing, just copied someone else's 50 -100 year old designs and made them to a higher standard. Nothing wrong with that you may argue, unless you are using a company's design credentials as a reason for advocating purchase. A perfectly respectable line in relation to Veritas and one of the reasons why I favour their products;they are the only makers of premium quality planes who have tried to move the game on in design terms.

In saying this I am not of course suggesting that this is an argument against BSF's decision to buy the QS which seems very sensible in his situation. Spending my own money gives me the luxury of being able use criteria other than functional adequacy and price.

Jim

Yes and no.

I did not buy a Clifton shoulder plane precisely because it is old fashioned in my view and did buy a Veritas which is one of my finest planes. Although LN are not innovative there was no alternative bedrock design at the time and "design" extends to materials and quality. Similarly if O1 steel and a two piece cap were your attractions you would go for the Clifton. Clearly price is always important but not so much as perceived value in the final analysis.

 

[Philly]

Why no Philly planes option?

because AFAIK philly doesnt make a no.6 jointer plane equivalent

AFAICS his longest plane is the "jack" which is roughly equivalent to a 4 or 5, If i'm wrong about this and philly does have a jointer in his repertoire which we would like to offer us for arround 120 notes then i'd invite him to get in touch

Yes, I make Jointers up to 30 inches long. Not sure if I can make it for the same as our Chinese cousins - the single craftsmen working alone has slightly higher overheads. :wink:
Philly

 

[big soft moose]

Not sure if I can make it for the same as our Chinese cousins - the single craftsmen working alone has slightly higher overheads. :wink:
Philly

I appreciate that and in an ideal world i would rather have suported british industry by giving either you or clifton the business, but as explained above i dont have that luxury of budget.

However for info (as I am also thinking of a 6 or 7 for myself) how much would you sell a comparable jointer for ?

 

[Philly]

A Try plane is £200, Jointer £225. Length to suit the customer, in quartersawn English Beech with a 60mm wide, 4mm thick O1 iron. Also the bed angle can be cut at a pitch to suit the types of timbers you work (from 40 degrees through to 60)
Cheers
Philly

 

[Max Power]

The fact that grieves me the most is that we actually give the chinese tens of millions every year in aid, while they enjoy economic growth in excess of 10% :roll:

 

[Modernist]

The fact that grieves me the most is that we actually give the chinese tens of millions every year in aid, while they enjoy economic growth in excess of 10% :roll:

Except that 10% of very little is still very little.

 

[Max Power]

:? very little ? they are now the second biggest economy in the world , so 10% growth on that would be very much

 

[Modernist]

:? very little ? they are now the second biggest economy in the world , so 10% growth on that would be very much

Yes but there are x times more of them - mostly in extreme poverty.

I see we are coming from different places. No problem.

 

[RichardL]

To suggest that this sounds the death knell for Clifton planes is utter rubbish.

Not utter rubbish. This may not be enough to kill off Clifton, but it will reduce sales, making their operation less viable.

Here in New Zealand we used to have world class tramping pack manufacturers (my other hobby...). They made the packs that Sir Edmund Hillary used to conquer Everest and on his Trans-Antarctic expeditions. Another business decided it could make packs cheaper by importing from China. Now there's no-one employed in pack manufacturing in NZ.

Beauacracy occurs everywhere. If it keeps your neighbour in a job it's not all bad.

Cheers, Vann.

Hi All

Just joined the forum, also from the other end of the globe.

I read through the posts with some interest and as Vann says, Kiwis have a similar approach to the free market as the UK and as a consequense, most of the good quality NZ-made stuff (and there used to be some really top notch stuff), either doesnt exist any more or is made in China. The replacement stuff is generally not as good, although a bit cheaper and of course I'm now paying the ex-employees the dole.

One thing seems to have been overlooked in this discussion. I haven't used a QS plane so can't really judge them, but do own a few Cliftons and other English tools (mostly Record ), many of which I have had for years and have become like old friends. Thats the point. They have lasted for years. I have also had a number of Chinese tools. Some like my Makita drill I think are great. Most others have made thier way, usually broken, to the bin.

So, for me, lesson #1 is that you never regret buying quality. Perhaps, in the long-run a Clifton will be cheaper as it will last. Furthermore, as the Cliftons are made by local craftsmen, it seems criminal not to support them.

Another thought is that I take a lot of pleasure and pride in using good tools and I hope that is reflected in my work. Even if the tools are not being used for fine cabinetmaking, surely that sort of thing will rub off in gate making or whatever.

I thought the original reason for replacing the planes was to buy something better (I think "Chinese rubbish" was mentioned)

For those just being patriotic (and good on you, shame you are in such a minority) I found this web site. http://www.buybritish.com/
Could do with a few more tool links though.

Cheers

Richard

 

[Vann]

Hi Richard,

Welcome to the forum.

I think you're the guy who acquired a nice old Record SS (04 or 04.5)some years ago, and posted somewhere on the www. Was that you?

Cheers, Vann.

 

[RichardL]

Hi Vann

yep, thats me, what a good memory. Haven't browsed many forums lately. Still love the old Record SS though, a lighter weight version of my Clifton #4. Actually, haven't used either for a while till tonight - to help make some bee hives. Ok they dont need to be planed perfectly smooth but I did anyway just to make some shavings!!

 

[Max Power]

Hi Richard, a very warm welcome to the forum, hows the weather down your way, its been awful here the last couple of days even though its now officially spring

 

[RichardL]

Hi and thanks for the welcome. After a fairly dreary wet summer here on the west of the north island, the weather has been pretty good this autumn. Other parts of the country are in drought so I guess we are fairly lucky. I have just read about the weather in the UK on the BBC. Sounds horrible but I guess spring is around the corner.

Cheers
Richard